IRC log started Sun May 21 00:00:00 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0521
<water> interesting exchange about slate earlier
12:10am
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<water> re
<smoke> hi
<scipient> hello thar
<water> time to go at it again? :)
<smoke> grin.
<water> actually i was just planning on using abi a bit to show you stuff
<scipient> yes, i see she's here tonight
<water> abi tunes?
<abi> tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org
<water> abi, tunes is also to programming language what the internet is to networks
<abi> water: no idea
<water> oh well
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<smoke> use `abi:' instead of `abi,'
12:20am
<water> abi: tunes is also to programming language what the internet is to networks
<abi> i don't know, water
<water> :P
<scipient> abi, the little borg girl with the big brain
<water> nice try, though
<hcf> in theory, 'abi:' and 'abi,' work the same
<smoke> hm weird then :/
<hcf> (iow, theyre supposed to at least)
<smoke> shouldn't it be programming language*s* btw?
<water> well anyway
<water> oops typi
<water> heh typo
<scipient> i read your slate-tutorial.html
<water> ok
<scipient> i'm in the middle of the other slate pages
<hcf> water: the booboo in the above factoid learning is that 'what' requires a '\', thus '\what'
<water> eh?
<water> hm ok
<water> hm care to show an example of what you mean? :)
<hcf> abi: tunes is also to programming languages \what the internet is to networks
<abi> okay, hcf.
<water> oh
<water> i thought you were using 'what' as anaphoric
<water> (ie a pronoun)
<hcf> its cuz (i think) question words (what, where, etc) get parsed b4 factoid learning
<water> yes that makes sense
<water> anyway
<scipient> abi tunes?
<abi> tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or to programming languages what the internet is to networks
<water> i figured out how to bypass the meta-programming problem with cloning the namespaces N-levels above the current one in the MO code
<water> the fact that you had to insert ".. .. clone <namespace1> <namespace2>"
<water> and that those last two identifiers couldn't be determined clearly without some special code every single time
<water> (very bad for a tunes system)
12:30am
<water> so i basically figured out that i could cast the namespace tree into a different "tunes view" (essentially typecasting on demand) so that the accessors would be part of a regular structure
<water> hm i'll explain it later when i have all the details worked out, but it amounts to being doable without much headaches
<water> heh now that i think about it, i bet i lost everyone in the room in that explanation at some point or another... sorry about that :)
<scipient> that's ok
* water/#tunes has lately also been reading about ontology- and commitment-based software design and collaborative tool design in uc&c
12:40am
<water> i still don't have an answer to Fare's question about how to be able to reify and absorb the linearity of variables, though
<water> it obviously has to do with references, though, and maybe using slate's MOs to control reference-propagation via monitoring cloning would do it
<water> i say only "maybe" because that notion seems to rely on the hierarchy idea where only one object has a slot object's reference directly, which obviously isn't the case due to ".."s existence
* water/#tunes decides to just ponder instead of filling the logs with half-way thought out ideas
12:50am
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (bye)
<water> hm
<water> does anyone have something to ask or discuss?
<water> has anyone become impregnated by aliens lately?
<scipient> i cannot claim that dubious honor
01:00am
<scipient> water, the link to the linux.com interview from the tunes homepage is broken
<water> sort of
<water> you can get to the right interview from the page it links to
<water> this is another thing i need to contact tril about (which i am attempting to do via email right now)
<scipient> ok, i found it.   but if you search for the name o fthe interviewee, you get no matches
<water> hm
<water> what's that url
<scipient> http://www.linux.com/interviews/20000322/46/
<water> thx
<hcf> abi: cfpe is "A Computational Formalization for Partial Evaluation" at http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/hatcliff97computational.html
01:10am
<water> ok, mailed Tril and Elric a joint mail to try to get this web-dev discussion going
01:20am
<scipient> does anybody here know much about COM & CORBA?
<water> i used to
<water> i can tell you what they're good for and what they're not at least
<scipient> ...  you've blissfully forgotten?
<water> heh
<scipient> well, do you know if CORBA has anything similar to an ActiveX object?
<water> well there's also the fact that i do a hell of a lot of reading, and stuff that doesn't get used gradually gets pushed on the mental shelf
<water> of course it does
<scipient> what would that be called?
<water> haven't you read the corba and corbascipt docs?
<water> just a corba object
<scipient> no...  
<water> you should if you want to know anything about them
<water> i know they're online... i read them once and kept them for reference for a while
<scipient> can you remember the urls?
<water> hm
<water> you know where the open group is at?
<hcf> the only alta hit for corbascript is http://www.lifl.fr/~marvie/download/index.html
<water> bah
<scipient> hm..  i think i've been to a site that was something like open group.  you don't mean object management group?
<hcf> abi: omg?
<abi> omg is Object Management Group, Inc., The architecture for a connected world at http://www.omg.org
<water> the omg should have it, but i think their site is down now
<hcf> abi: omg is also the corba pushers
<abi> okay, hcf.
<hcf> their ftp is up tho
<scipient> does abi remember this stuff?
<water> hcf: you have a port scanner running or something? :)
<hcf> scipient: its stored in a db
<scipient> hcf: how do you retrieve it
<hcf> water: no, its cuz kc mentioned their ftp earlier
<water> oh
<hcf> scipient: join #tunes_test and i'l show u
<hcf> abi: cfe?
<abi> cfe is Compiler Front End, a downloadable IDL front-end from OMG's FTP site or at ftp://ftp.omg.org/pub/contrib/OMG_IDL_CFE_1.3/
<hcf> he was talkin bout this
<water> interesting
01:50am
<water> oh an IDL compiler
<water> yeah this is something i was looking at back in 96-97
<hcf> kc just found it i think
<water> scipient: http://www.swtech.com/corba/
<water> abi corba
<abi> corba is an open standards document which describes how to make remote objects work together, independent of programming language. at http://www.omg.org and http://www.corba.org
<scipient> thx
<water> np
<water> hm abi's almost at 1100 factoids
<water> btw corba also has a DMOZ folder
<scipient> DMOZ?
<water> abi dmoz
<abi> dmoz is the open directory project or at http://dmoz.org
<hcf> abi: tell scipient about dmoz
<hcf> oops
<water> oh well
<scipient> abi, abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn or not a nat.lang expert
<water> anyway
<scipient> abi, thanks
<abi> scipient: no worries
<scipient> cute
<hcf> scipient: uhm dude
<hcf> use #tunes_test for this
<scipient> ok
<scipient> www.infind.com turns up a lot on corbascript
<water> k
02:00am
* water/#tunes does his usual random re-reading of tunes docs
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<water> hi bjg
<water> what can we do for you?
<bjg> just looking
<water> ok
<water> if you have any questions about tunes etc, we're here to help
<bjg> thanks
02:10am
<water> hm
<water> slate seems to handle hll as the core language, but its environment naturally will have to address the meta-translator stuff
<water> in fact the environment has to in order to build a "full" programming language out of the core syntax and semantics
<water> s/has/*has*/
<water> scipient: what i was considering when objecting to perl within tunes last night is due to this: http://www.tunes.org/HLL/meta/C/index.html
<water> scipient: an *abstract* kind of perl, which really wouldn't be perl at all, would be ok if appropriate of course
<scipient> ok..  i'll look into that
<scipient> here's a side question..  is it intended for a tunes system to be able to emulate a windows or linux box?
<water> heh
<water> hold on i'll find the tunes doc that addresses that
<water> abi: faq?
<abi> faq is http://www.tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html
<water> question 5
02:20am
<water> emulation of low-level stuff is certainly possible, but beyond the scope of the project and its philosophy
<scipient> abi: PIG?
<abi> PIG is Pig Is Gnu, the GNU/Linux emulation subsystem for Tunes
<scipient> so..  would PIG emulate the linux kernel?
<water> of course a tunes installation has to be able to emulate its own hardware in order to compile and test software
<water> probably it would just emulate the POSIX api
<water> which is mostly the same thing
<water> and it's not something i give a damn about... probably Fare's baby
<water> he's hypocritical like that ;)
<scipient> how hard would it be just to emulate the actual hardware environment and BIOS of an x86 system?
<water> not difficult.... hardware is a state-machine of sorts, and lisp and other high-level languages can describe those things as objects
<water> it's been done, in other words
<water> and once you've done it, code generation just plugs into it directly
<scipient> well, once you have that,  the user could install windows inside the virtual machine from a bonafide win9x cdrom, right?  or for that matter they could partition the virtual hard drive, put in LILO, and install linux?
<water> heh sure
<scipient> no need to emulate the POSIX api
<water> LOL
<water> would you run Windows inside of Bochs?
<hcf> 322 alta hits for 'CorbaScript', case matters
<scipient> Bochs?
<hcf> abi: bochs?
<abi> bochs is a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga
<water> it's SLOOOOOW :)
<water> that's how emulation works
<water> unless you really spice it up with dynamic recompilation or something of that sort
<scipient> okay.  not that i know exactly what you mean but it sounds good.   maybe better than having different people write a POSIX API emulation, a Win32 API emulation, etc.
<water> uh sure
<water> you can read about it by picking up a copy of SICP
02:30am
<water> abi: sicp
<abi> sicp is Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs at http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/
<scipient> so speed is the problem?
<water> the code at that site is from the book and should include stuff for using lisp to describe hardware
<water> no, but it makes it difficult
<water> geez, go learn
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<water> and use more complete phrases in your questions so i know what you're asking
<water> and we don't get confused
02:40am
<scipient> was there any progress on html versions of the arrow papers?
<water> since when?
<scipient> in the last 24hrs
<water> lol
<water> yeah in between working on slate, sleeping, and trying to enjoy my vacation, i manually converted my latex sources to sgml, then to html
<scipient> congratulations.
<water> </sarcasm>
<water> sorry dude, i don't get paid for this, and it's not fun
<water> and it's also not what i am familiar with
<water> which is why i'm trying to get Tril and Elric to work this out and get my web-management stuff done
<scipient> i only asked b/c you mentioned you had a friend who was going to do it for you
<water> well, the time frame is not under control yet
<water> i have to catch elric, get him and tril to go over the preliminary agreements, and work out the details with him in person while we are looking at the tunes web stuff in real time
<water> and considering this guy drinks pepto-bismol when he's not drinking vodka, this looks like a tricky situation to pull off :P
<water> i just love dealing with these high-quality people
02:50am
<scipient> hmm.  maybe he should just switch to robitussin 24/7 to consolidate
<scipient> these are the guys who operate bespin?
<water> tril is one of the bespin guys
<water> he's 90 miles north of me at college
<water> elric is a lead sysadmin who knows web coding like the back of his hand, but he's in seattle near me
03:00am
<water> hm
<scipient> hm?
<water> just thinking about how potentially useful xml term would be for development purposes
<scipient> xml term?
<water> (i'm really reading a paper on reflection upon communication channels)
<hcf> abi: xmlterm?
<abi> xmlterm is a cross between xterm and mozilla at http://www.xmlterm.org/
<scipient> s/\s//
<water> was just thinking that typing in xml structs (with tags implicit of course) would be portable to web-dev at some level
03:10am
<scipient> you mean for authoring documents?
<water> of course
<scipient> sure, translating xml to html is fairly trivial
<water> i mean at fine grain, though
<water> with the ability to go back and re-edit and transform etc
<water> and no fscking cli garbage required
<scipient> so you could edit the document directly off the website?
<water> yep
<scipient> weren't you guys going to use wiki?
<water> this could be unified with chat, too
<water> we have wiki... it sucks
<scipient> oh.  no hope for improving it?
<water> squeak has swiki, which is a little better
<water> well, who would DO it????
<smoke> what exactly do you want to document?
* water/#tunes is regretting mentioning the idea
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<Fufie> hum
<smoke> and i don't see why you would want to unify html and chat
<water> hey fufie
<smoke> irc works great.
<water> yeah for noise
<smoke> as if that would be different when it's unified with html
<water> i don't want irc, i want collaborative discussion
<water> not html you ass
<scipient> you've got the email discussion groups
<water> something structured like sgml or xml
<water> email is no better
<water> less interactive, and no structure as well
* hcf/#tunes watches water be driven further mad
<water> heh
<Fufie> email has structure
<scipient> you want something 'threaded'
<water> ok time to go read papers and leave you noisy people to your pitiful chat
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
<scipient> gotta love 'im
<Fufie> nothing has changed on #tunes I see :-)
<scipient> well, i guess i'll call it a night
03:20am
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* smoke/#tunes has mixed feelings about water :)
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<mix> with orthogonal persistence of objects, compilation and administration of program binaries with automatic consistency management of dynamically optimized
<mix> gosh, sounds intelligent.
<Fufie> mix: many long words there
<mix> Yup, TUNES site.
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<water> :)
<water> re all
<water> mix: got questions?
* water/#tunes was snooping
<Fufie> we knew that :)
<Fufie> as said, nothing changes ;)
<water> yeah well slate's definition will be done by the end of the month
<water> i get more sure of it by the day
<water> now if only i can get a web designer/coder to work on the site with me
<mix> water shake, just curios. Never seen tunes before.
03:30am
<water> k
<water> anything new with you, foof?
<Fufie> not a lot, been afk for a month or so
<water> afk for a month is good
<smoke> * smoke has mixed feelings about water :)
<smoke> [*#*] mix (mix@h220n2fls20o93.telia.com) has joined channel #tunes
* smoke/#tunes is scared
<Fufie> water: depends on why, but sometimes it is yes
<water> heh
* water/#tunes would like to be permanently afk
03:40am
<water> cool, this reification of channels and reflection upon them consists of technical issues i am already considering
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<water> and my model is more elegant, while equivalent :)
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<water> tunes could have had a HLL about two years ago, if Fare had done his research properly
<mix> Bye =)
<water> heh
<water> cya
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<water> ok there left my reason for staying
<water> toodles
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03:50am
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* cwr/#tunes yawns.
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[ TUNES     ] [ eihrul    ] [ abi       ] [ I440r     ] [ FufieAfk  ] 
[ smoke     ] [ smkl      ] [ thomas    ] [ cwr       ] 
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* cwr/#tunes will be back later.
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<water> hey eihrul
10:40am
<Fufie> smoke: remove that funny char at the end of your name please :)
<Fufie> smoke: I can't reply because my irc-program doesn't allow me to type it in.. change it to e.g 2 or _ or something, please :)
11:00am
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<smkl> well that is one lame irc client
<Fufie> indeed
11:10am
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<water> hm
12:10pm
<hcf> abi: cfpe?
<abi> cfpe is "A Computational Formalization for Partial Evaluation" at http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/hatcliff97computational.html
<water> thx
<hcf> np :)
<water> it's pretty rough remembering 4-letter acronyms for a bunch of papers
<water> (conversation transferring over from #dolphin)
<water> so anyway, tril's not nearly done with his db work and it isn't even applicable beyond glossary/review
12:20pm
<water> but that wasn't my interest per se
<water> hm
<water> i really need to get my laptop working again so i can take my papers and such with me when i go out
<water> otoh i do have books i still need to read
12:30pm
<Fufie> when do you go out to hunt fish?
<water> this week
12:50pm
<water> (seriously)
<Fufie> and won't be back for how long?
<water> 3 days
<Fufie> oh.. I thought the navy was out for long periods of time
<water> looking forward to it?
<water> well i'm on a 2-week vacation
<water> oh wait
<water> you didn't know that? :)
<Fufie> I have been away for more than a month so I have no clue of what you plan to do
<water> oh well i meant actually going out and catching some fish :)
<water> among other things
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<I440r> hi water :)
<water> hey
<I440r> :)
<water> tcn's been posting in c.l.forth lately
<I440r> was linking my irc server n stuff
<I440r> posting what ?
<I440r> i dont subscribe to those...
<water> some things about color forth and some meta-compiler stuff
<I440r> aha ive never seen color forth...
<water> apparently it's chuck moore's toy and people are thinking about the ideas and how the idea could be re-used
<I440r> i know of it...
<water> fufie: i don't go out to sea for another 3 months, and then its only a week or so
01:00pm
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* water/#tunes gets ready to leave
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<water> hey corey
01:40pm
<water> hm ok well bbl then
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01:50pm
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<water> re re
<coreyr> re
<coreyr> water: nope nothing to talk about. :)
<water> :P
<coreyr> where is the glossary linked from www.tunes.org/ ?
<hcf> papers
<water> sitemap and papers
<coreyr> ok
<coreyr> i dont like navigation on tunes.org
<water> yeah it's clunky to say the least
<water> apparently i will have a chance to sort this all out with elric tonight
<coreyr> hopefully. :)
<water> well i just got off the phone with him
<water> i wonder how many people have actually read the entire migration subproject stuff and made sure they grokked it?
<water> Fare doesn't make it easy... little phrases he simply mentions and doesn't elaborate on mean a whole lot in terms of requirements
02:20pm
* water/#tunes decides to post a few more paper url's to review
<coreyr> and things which should be plain are complicated by verbage
<coreyr> theres verbage everywhere
<water> sometimes that's an artifact of the fact that he's discussing ordinary subject at a level where the usual words don't mean higher-order things like he wants them to
<coreyr> if you want to filter out everyone who doesnt know this stuff its a great way
<water> heh
<coreyr> but it should start out simple and introduce one concept at a time
<water> sure
<water> we need a better way to manage this stuff than page-by-page cvs
<water> because it's the stuff within the page that sucks the most
<water> i'm definitely going to discuss this with elric
<water> damn it, i forgot to make the minor fixes to the slate tutorial
<coreyr> :)
<water> corey: while i have it open, feel free to list complaints and suggestions
<water> slowly, so i can discuss it
<coreyr> ok
<coreyr> do i go too fast on questioning?
<water> sometimes
<coreyr> ill work on it.
<water> don't worry about it, just look at the tutorial and tell me what's confusing or missing or what bothers you
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (zzz)
<coreyr> are you going to put the current object before the >
<coreyr> ?
<water> yeah that's one of the things to add right now
* water/#tunes opens an ftp client to get fast feedback
<coreyr> how does clone work?
<water> eh?
<water> hm
<coreyr> and example of clone
<coreyr> s/and/an
<water> ok that takes a little more explaining than just one sentence, but ok
* coreyr/#tunes nods.
02:30pm
<water> hm universal slots like 'result' make the prompt look ambiguous when only 'result>' appears
<coreyr> then why not the whole "path" ?
<coreyr> that can get long..
<water> yeah
<water> and it makes for some semantic problems, potentially
<water> i'll think on it
<coreyr> whats workspace?
<water> ok prompts are updated
<water> uh
<water> you tell me :)
<coreyr> in slate.lisp
<coreyr> i know your not doing that
<water> ask eihrul
<coreyr> but im messing with it while looking at the tutorial
<water> ok
<water> well they don't offer exactly the same api
<coreyr> i guess its playGround :)
<water> yeah for now
<coreyr> how do you make a new object? (you clone it from an existing right? how?
<water> type "root clone /"
<water> or something similar.... that's what should get you into a new object cloned from the default
<water> if you just type "root clone", the clone gets GC'd immediately
02:40pm
<water> ok fixed Fare's beef about CLOS
<coreyr> what beef was that?
<water> what was the other thing he whined about?
* water/#tunes checks the logs
<coreyr> what day?
<water> i think the 19th or 18th
<water> 18th, found it
<water> oh yeah he whined about my making a statement on tunes p/e
<water> bleh
* water/#tunes removes it anyway, as he hates hearing Fare bitch
<water> ok that's fixed
* water/#tunes considers how to explain cloning
<water> corey: are there other fixes or additions i can make?
02:50pm
<water> does anyone have suggestions?
<water> (damn lurkers)
<hcf> a help system for slate.lisp ;)
<water> hm
<water> online i suppose
<hcf> cgi'ing slate.lisp to the tut
<water> yeah
<water> i'll mention that to elric at least
<water> and of course to eihrul
* water/#tunes looks at eihrul's tunes web folder
<hcf> a post to slate@ b4 ur "deadline"
<water> hm
<water> what do you think i should cover?
* water/#tunes has been hiding from mail interaction lately
<hcf> status update
<hcf> todo issues
<water> yeah, todo
<hcf> a little flirting w/ what elric may do
<water> yeah anyone would appreciate a re-design of the site :)
<hcf> the slate-wise poop for slate@
<water> the what?
<hcf> what elric may do for the slate web poop
<water> oh
<water> btw, this is his site: http://elric.org
<water> no, this isn't his range of design ;)
<coreyr> goth hmm...
03:00pm
<hcf> whats the point of the frames and js?
<water> he was bored
<hcf> so suffer the visitor, right?
* water/#tunes fixes the tutorial typesetting
<water> heh
<water> true goth ;)
<coreyr> ok thats enough of elric.org
<coreyr> heh
<hcf> not bad
<water> what's the tage for getting fixed-width typesetting for variables in an ordinary paragraph?
<hcf> but i hate 'click here'isms like on the anti-spam page
<water> s/tage/tag/
<water> i don't think he'll adversely affect our design
<water> for now, i just used courier font for my variables' formatting fixes
<water> is there some better way?
<hcf> oh
<hcf> hmm, <code>?
<water> hm
<Fufie> <tt>?
<hcf> or <tt>
<water> online html reference?
<hcf> water: odp
<Fufie> plenty of references.. see w3.org
<Fufie> or the one at microsoft.com
<coreyr> <kbd>
<Fufie> or you could make a stylesheet specifying the exact font
<water> i think i'll just bother elric about it
<water> he has suggested sgml-tools
<Fufie> if you have debian you might just as well go for docbook
03:10pm
<water> i have docbook on my mandrake system
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<water> ?
<hcf> twas missin for me
<water> oh
<water> hm transitioning between html and wysiwyg is terrible
<water> no, there's a little hidden checkbox for <tt>
* water/#tunes checks the output
<water> perfect
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<water> ok the typesetting is fixed for now
03:20pm
<eihrul> water: <delayed> (clone) /
<water> oops forgot a few little things
<water> why does your evaluator require the () ?
<eihrul> the other will actually enter the clone method...
<water> oh
<water> hm
<water> i didn't think about that
<water> ok typesetting fixing is done
<water> ok that clears up some confusion i was having about the syntax, then
<water> in that case, ".. /" won't work
<water> it would have to be "(..) /", or no?
<eihrul> yes, its just the semantics of the crucial little first symbol :)
<water> hm
<water> do you think there's a cleaner way to do it?
<eihrul> currying? :)
<water> ejemplo?
<eihrul> well, right now...
<eihrul> for: object (message blah)
<eihrul> message is first looked up in object
<eihrul> then blah is looked up in that object, and applied to it
<eihrul> then the looked-up message object is applied to object
<water> hm
<water> right
<eihrul> the whole point there being that apply is delayed for the first symbol looked up until last
<water> LIFO then?
<eihrul> more like post-order :)
03:30pm
<eihrul> subsequent elements are 'apply'd before the first
<water> sort of a reverse-order evaluation
<water> wierd
<water> i hadn't thought of it that way
<eihrul> although lookup happens in pre-order
<water> right, which is why i said LIFO
<water> there's a lookup diving into the expression, the apply brings you back out
<eihrul> yep
<water> it could be confusing at times
<water> (perhaps)
<eihrul> it can be
<water> do you have any qualms about it as is?
* water/#tunes looks at the tutorial code again
<water> so evaluating a message always requires () if you want to avoid having the next message being looked up within its namespace
<water> or rather
<water> you use () when you want the result and not the namespace access?
<water> hm a fine distinction
<water> there might be a way to make / obsolete, as a possibility
03:40pm
<water> boy, i love the great feedback from you guys on language design ;)
<water> of course i'm glad eihrul brought that up
<coreyr> so if you dont have () it decends into that namespace?
<Fufie> (yawn)
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<water> hm
<water> i think that there's a choice i can make about what it should do in that case
<water> or at the very least i don't know yet what it should do
<water> since it depends on some of the stuff i'm still working out
<water> in the case of "clone /", yes it has to work that way
<water> descending into the namespace that is the clone method, not the clone method's result
<water> so the () helps control evaluation in that particular case
<water> actually, it's just an extension of existing syntax ideas for traditional oo programming within slate
<water> except in this case you're doing it at the base namespace level instead of one namespace away
<water> like if i said "x clone" then i should expect the next thing to be evaluated as within the clone method
<water> but that suggests that / is indeed obsolete
<water> if i typed "x (clone)" then the clone gets made and GC'd instantly
03:50pm
<water> if i typed "x (clone) /" then it does what i want: clone x and put you in the resulting namespace, which is a (nameless?) slot in the same namespace that x is in
<water> yes, nameless (sort of)
<water> but if / is redundant, then why is it needed here?
<water> hm
<coreyr> you tell me.
<coreyr> heh
* water/#tunes toys with parentheses on the expression
<water> maybe parentheses can be made to do the work of /
<water> ok it's time to go out and enjoy the day :)
<coreyr> heh
<water> and leave You Hanging!!! >:)
<coreyr> ahhhhhh!!!!!
<coreyr> heh
<water> seriously i'll figure out what the problem is
<coreyr> hmm
<water> it's all syntax, nothing impossible to deal with
<coreyr> ill be so confused with slate syntax by the end....
<water> heh
<water> this is why i didn't advertise the tutorial ;)
<water> consider yourself the hapless guinea pig
<water> well toodles
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
04:00pm
* coreyr/#tunes grrs netscape's dhtml support.
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<hcf> abi: FMPL is Frobozz Magic Programming Language: a prototype-based OO PL with functional features at ftp://ftp.xcf.berkeley.edu/pub/src/local/fmpl/
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<eihrul> conspicuous name...
<eihrul> hmmm, pretty old already too
<eihrul> looks kind of like self :)
05:00pm
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<I440r> ult. i got my irc linked!
06:10pm
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<tcn> hey y'all
<tcn> just FYI - I posted a retro update
<tcn> take care..
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08:00pm
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<witten> waiter, waiter, there's circular dependencies in my program
08:10pm
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<water> re
* coreyr/#tunes nods.
<water> hey the syntax eihrul mentioned before was fine
<water> so "(clone) /" just means "((clone) /)"
<water> whereas "clone /" meant "(clone (/))"
<coreyr> does the a ( descend into an object and leave you there?
<water> yep
<water> i even considered omitting / at one point a while ago and just not closing parentheses
<water> in order to move across namespaces
09:50pm
<water> or closing parentheses extra times in order to invoke the same thing as ..
<water> it's actually still an option i'm weighing
<coreyr> hmm...
<coreyr> im actually kinda following a conversation.
<coreyr> wierd.
<water> the critical factor is whether or not such a solution is robust enough to expand to graph-like organisations, which the current one *seems* capable of handling
<water> yep
<water> and the graph aspect is absolutely necessary, even if it has to be kept hidden from the user as such for UI purposes
<coreyr> does the tutorial reflect these new considerations?
<water> not yet... i'll update now
<water> hm and add a syntax note of course to make it clear before we introduce the weirdness of "(..) /"
<water> n/m the note is already there, but i'm cleaning it up to help out
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<water> hey witten
<witten> hey
10:00pm
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<witten> i've got circular dependencies in my commpiler's classes, and i don't know how to resolve 'em
<water> corey: the reason for that odd syntax idea was to keep out the strangeness of / and design problems it might cause, as well as the current fact that ( and ) are still special literals in slate
<water> hm
<water> witten: how'd you arrange that?
<witten> water: by trying to use a visitor pattern
<water> ok i can see how that would happen :)
<water> what language?
<witten> C++
<water> eeep!
<water> :)
<witten> why?
<water> dare you mention that heinous language here?! :)
<water> seriously
<witten> haha
<water> how are you applying the pattern?
<witten> water: what're you/eihrul coding slate in?
<water> well so far we have lisp code... i assume eihrul's working in c right now on the full compiler
<witten> water: i have a visitor class that has visit(Type& var) member functions for each type it knows how to visit. those types, in turn, have an accept(Visitor& visitor) member function which calls visitor.visit(this)
<water> abi: fmpl
<abi> fmpl is Frobozz Magic Programming Language: a prototype-based OO PL with functional features at ftp://ftp.xcf.berkeley.edu/pub/src/local/fmpl/
<water> ?!?!?!?
<water> so you're delegating in circles, is that it?
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<witten> water: no... 
<witten> brb
<water> hm
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<water> hcf: care to explain that fmpl? :)
<water> re tom
<hcf> nah
<water> where'd you find it?
<hcf> i just happened to see it while on foldoc
<water> hm it's 7 years old at least
<water> i wonder what the hell it runs on if it was last updated in '93
<witten> water: i'm not delegating/calling in circles. rather, i'm depending on classes in circles (by aggregation, inheritance, etc)
<water> oh
<water> heh an AI loop :)
<witten> heh
10:10pm
<witten> so logically it should all work.. it's just that the compiler will follow the chain of #include files until it barfs
* water/#tunes thinks this problem would be pretty simple to fix in smalltalk
<witten> how?
<water> so which classes are supposed to implement the methods?
<witten> water: what methods?
<water> sorry, "member functions" :P
<witten> heh, what member functions?
<water> you're really asking this in the wrong channel, you know, even though i do know the visitor pattern
<water> huh?
<witten> i think this channel is much more applicable than something like a c++ channel..
<witten> what member functions do you speak of?
<water> <witten> water: i have a visitor class that has visit(Type& var) member functions for each type it knows how to visit. those types, in turn, have an accept(Visitor& visitor) member function which calls visitor.visit(this)
<witten> oh
<witten> those are concrete classes
<water> that's not what i mean
<water> i'm asking where the stuff gets done
<witten> *what* stuff? :)
<water> (btw you are keeping me from working out slate issues, so i want to get this over with)
* water/#tunes sighs
<witten> bah, go work on slate :)
<coreyr> heh
<witten> i can ask my own damn vague question :)
<water> smalltalk makes oo a piece of cake.... and there are good compilers for it, too
<water> e.g. smalltalk/x or smalltalkMT
<witten> yeah well this wouldn't be so bad except for the dependencies.. 
<water> please take this somewhere else
<witten> bah
<water> :)
<water> fmpl is a bit wierd
<water> heh, i'm one to talk :)
* coreyr/#tunes had already quietly noted that.
<coreyr> :P
10:20pm
<water> bah
<water> fmpl is hardly a functional language
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<water> i guess that's why they only say it has functional *features* :)
<water> weird... this guy makes a programming language for research and includes a mini text-adventure engine with the distro
<water> ok enough of that
<water> back to the tutorial
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10:30pm
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<hcf> water: weren't u gonna post smth to review@?
11:30pm
<water> oh
<water> forgot
<water> not important right now
<hcf> k
* hcf/#tunes &
<water> &?
<hcf> background
<water> uh sure
<water> you go do that
<water> bleh... it's really ambiguous whether or not climbing up the namespace tree whould involve ".. /" or "(..) /"
<water> i am seriously thinking about dropping / and making ( and ) part  of user-land
<water> the cool thing is that if i do, i don't even have to be stuck with the push-pop model
<water> which i think is already available, but hm
<water> syntax issues suck :P
11:40pm
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<water> re
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11:50pm
<water> gah!
<water> how fscking hard can it possibly to integrate shell access to namespaces with oop?
<water> s/possibly/possibly be/
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0522
IRC log ended Mon May 22 00:00:02 2000