IRC log started Thu May 18 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0518
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12:10am
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<oskie> heh.. OpenProjects network is superior to Efnet
<water> well, it's got a better s/n ratio
<water> abi: squeak?
<abi> squeak is a cool pure oo language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
<water> our own infobot
<oskie> hehe, nice.. I was first introduced to this network through the #debian channel..
<water> squeak is about to have some very nice features released
<water> ok
<oskie> ok, I'll check it out
<water> hm unfortunately, even here, two-thirds of the users are lurkers
<oskie> maybe it's the wrong time of the day.. heh
<oskie> I'm reading some smalltalk tutorials..
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<water> no i know these lurkers quite well
12:30am
<water> some of them actually say something once a day
<nate37> ISP was down temoraly for me :(
<water> oic
<water> some of them don't even care that we have channel logs posted online :)
<nate37> did hcf get that email address, btw?
<water> not that i noticed
<water> he probably believed that you weren't going to make it back tonight
<oskie> I'm going to get some breakfast now..
<water> k
<nate37> i didn't think i was either
<smkl> water: do you mean not caring to read them?
<oskie> water: nice talking to you, I'll probably see you later :)
<water> smkl: i mean not caring to stay off the channel unless you have a reason specifically to be here
<water> oskie: ok
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12:40am
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<Kaekitus> hey?
<water> hi
<water> what can we do for you?
<Kaekitus> i never done this before...so be easy on me....
<water> done what?
<Kaekitus> mirc thing..
<water> oh
<water> i take it you found us from the website?
<Kaekitus> so tell me what goes on here>?
<Kaekitus> ya..
<water> we discuss tunes and slate and other projects development
<Kaekitus> tunes you mean?
<water> abi is an infobot that we use to provide explanations and url's
<water> of course tunes
<Kaekitus> oh....
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<water> what?
<water> these newbie interactions always find new and different ways to surprise me
<water> oh well
01:30am
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<water> `
<nate37> eh?
<water> just a minimalist greeting
<nate37> k.. u havn't happen to run into any online text books for beging electroics that are free... have u?
<water> i rarely if ever look into electronics online
<water> but i'd guarantee that there's something online somewhere about it
* nate37/#tunes nods
<water> google or altavista search should do
<nate37> i'm looking.. hopefully like Art of Asm.. that was pretty nice
02:10am
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<water> hello delak
<delak> hello
02:20am
<water> can we do anything for you?
<water> most everyone here is asleep, btw
<delak> do you know AT&T asm
<delak> ?
<water> not personally
<water> i work on language design and implementation... high-level issues
<delak> i have a problem with linking asm and c module
<water> what environment?
<delak> i use gcc gnu asm (linux)
<water> have you tried #linpeople?
<delak> nope
<water> sorry, i have to save my time for working on tunes
<water> you understand?
<water> i don't mean to be rude or anything, but i'm not the guy to ask
<delak> but i need help
<water> yes, but i don't have answers :)
<water> seriously i don't focus on that kind of thing
<delak> ok
<water> thx for understanding
<water> i wish i knew who could answer your question at this time of day, but i don't
<delak> ok i go to #linpeople 
<water> good luck :)
<delak> thx
<delak> :)
<delak> water : do you write a compilers?
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<water> yes but not in c
<water> i'm sure that sounds very improbable to you :)
<delak> hmm, what language dou you use?
<water> smalltalk and lisp lately
<delak> aha
<water> i also use some other more obscure languages, mostly to experiment
<delak> what operating system?
<water> various ones... it usually is transparent to me
<water> e.g. win32, linux, beos
02:30am
<delak> what do you think about beos?
<water> it's alright... very nice performance and reliability, but it's not supported well enough to be comfortable to work in
<delak> where are you from?
<water> i live in downtown seattle right now
<delak> oh i see
<delak> i'm from poland
<water> ok
02:40am
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<water> re
<water> oops
03:10am
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* water/#tunes whistles some tunes
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<coreyr> water: its more time consuming to browse the logs than for me on my connection to lurker on some terminal.
06:20am
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<Fare> lurker?
<coreyr> Fare: im furthering the english language with its behaviour of simplifying word endings.
<Fare> o ar yo?
<Fare> interesti.
<coreyr> yep.
<coreyr> down with agglutinating languages!
07:40am
<coreyr> need to increase morpheme diversity.
* coreyr/#tunes hmms.
<Fare> on ferait mieux de parler français, tant qu'on y est.
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<Fare> what's a "dickens of a time" ?
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<coreyr> heh
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<coreyr> Fare: i dont know where it comes from
<coreyr> but just means a really good time
<Fare> is it related to dickens novels being reputedly long?
<coreyr> Fare: but in a 1950s leave it to beaver way
<coreyr> like gee thats swell
<coreyr> Fare: it just means a really good time but its not vogue right now.
<coreyr> Fare: and french is even more agglutinating than english.
<coreyr> well
<coreyr> inflectional
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<coreyr> english in its creolish history is dropping inflections
<coreyr> that why it be ok to talk like dis in some parts.
<Fare> french, agglutinating?
<Fare> maybe you should learn chinese...
<coreyr> yeah
<coreyr> i had the terms mixed in my head
<coreyr> agglutinating = japanese, isolating = chinese, inflecting = latin
<Fare> OpenBSD can send open file descriptors over sockets. Nice.
<coreyr> i think im switching back to obsd
<coreyr> fbsd's got me down.
<Fare> what's wrong about fbsd?
<coreyr> many things are portable away from linux
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't know fbsd but by name
<coreyr> arent
<Fare> portable away?
<coreyr> hmm
<coreyr> sometimes its a hassle to make somethings right out of the box
<Fare> isn't obsd ever worse off, as regards ports?
<coreyr> yes
<coreyr> obsd is worse off
<coreyr> like they dont use the gnu ld
07:50am
<Fare> so if you complain about fbsd, what makes you think you'll be happy w/ obsd?
<coreyr> obsd for server, linux for programming
<Fare> last time I saw an obsd developer, he was _proud_ of not using gnu ld, or gnu tools in general
<coreyr> ill have two boxes now. :)
<Fare> I'd use OBSD for a server, but I fear it won't handle ADSL for me
<coreyr> it handles ethernet just fine. 
<coreyr> heh
<coreyr> and its not at all messy
<Fare> the french ADSL uses that weird pptp stuff
<Fare> I guess just so as to be nasty with customers
<Fare> (ppp over ethernet is dumb, to me)
<Fare> (I say that, but I do ppp over telnet, which is even worse)
<coreyr> have you finally gotten the adsl?
<Fare> yes and no
<Fare> I'm physically connected,
<Fare> but my ISP is down :( :(
<coreyr> are they just incompetent?
<Fare> yes and no
<Fare> it's a free beta-test subscription while they are setting up their system
<coreyr> ahh.
<Fare> I could go to another ISP for some 20 bucks per month, and will if they are not done this month
<coreyr> another isp for adsl?
<Fare> yup
<coreyr> is there that much choice?
<coreyr> hmph.
<coreyr> here i got, my apartments ethernet, cable modem, or adsl
<coreyr> but if i still lived at home
<coreyr> id have modem.
<Fare> for the ISP, yes. For the physical connection, none.
<Fare> cable is much much too expensive for me.
<coreyr> do connectivity options diminish rapidly outside of paris?
08:00am
<Fare> yup
<Fare> some rich towns have cable and/or adsl, too
<coreyr> florida's connectivity is on par with north dakota.
<coreyr> i guess from being a penisula.
<coreyr> i heard that paris was very expensive to live
08:10am
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<Fare> it sure is expensive
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08:50am
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<Downix> hello all
09:00am
<coreyr> ` afternoon.
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<Downix> what's up/
<Downix> ?
<water> hey
<water> just woke up
<Downix> me too
<water> heh
<water> ok i'm working on slate of course
<Downix> I'm making an OS kernel
<water> and generally relaxing
<water> cool :)
<coreyr> water: anything posted?
<Downix> I've hung around you guys too much!
* water/#tunes 's music -> Bjork
<water> corey: no, i'm waiting for my web-admin friend to be available
* Downix/#tunes is listening to Tom Waits
<water> dx: what makes you say that? :)
<Downix> water:  Anyone who hangs in this channel starts their own OS
<water> well, aren't you *supposed* to be doing that as part of eddas-dev?
<Downix> this isn't for Eddas tho
<coreyr> experts at nothing but wasting time, oh wait thats me.
<water> ooooohhhhh :)
* Downix/#tunes got sucked into making the new exec.library for the OpenAmigaOS
<water> tsk tsk
<Downix> hey, exec.library is a simple OS.  Only 280 lines of assembler as/is
<water> oh ok
09:10am
<Downix> remember, this is for an Amiga.  the whole OS is under 128k, and I'm only making the kernel
09:20am
-:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/
<water> gah
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<Downix> I need to find a good source to help me understand 68k asm
<water> other than motorola manuals of course
<Downix> well, Amiga 68k asm
<Downix> if I had an Amiga ASM to C converter I'd be in even better shape
<water> heh you're on your own them
* water/#tunes closes his seaarch window
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> ah well I can hand-do it
09:30am
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<water> re Fare
<Fare> down with civil services!
* Fare/#Tunes just wasted one hour of time to send money to the US, which may take as much as ten days!
<water> heh
<water> you can't use something like egold?
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<water> re plonk
<Fare> no
<plonk> heyhey
<water> are we still "nutty buggers"?
<water> :)
<plonk> Most certainly you are :>
<Fare> no, not buggers
10:30am
<plonk> Nonetheless, plonk finds himself intrigued by the truly heinious nature of the problem that is being tackled here.
<water> heh
<plonk> Where would be a good place to learn about Lambda Calculus ?
<plonk> *grinsevilly*
* water/#tunes is continuing in his reading of Bawden's thesis
<Fare> heinous?
<water> hmm
<Fare> plonk: a university? a tutorial book?
<water> a tutorial he means
* plonk/#tunes *dreams* of the sheer luxury of university study
<Fare> I'm not sure I know a good tutorial about "lambda-calculus"
<plonk> Hmmm...
<Fare> there are tutorials about programming, using functional programming languages
<water> i have some papers on it, but they're pretty formal
<Fare> there are courses on theoretical CS, that all tackle lambda-calculus
<plonk> Fare: Quick definition of functional programming ? (As opposed to OO, procedural ?)
<Fare> there are tutorials on scheme
<Fare> plonk: functional programming is a misnomer, but a traditional name
* Downix/#tunes has been pondering IDE design
<plonk> water: Too formal for someone without a backround in varsity logic ?
<Fare> plonk: let's say that it stresses the use of pure (=side-effect free) higher-order functions
<Downix> anyone here know some references on how to make an integrated development environment?
<Fare> plonk: maybe see Felleisen's TeachScheme! project
<plonk> Downix: The kdevelop/kdestudio source code ? *duck*
<Fare> that's for programming using the functional paradigm
<Downix> plonk:  I ment USEFUL
<plonk> Fare: Ah, thank you :>
* Downix/#tunes is looking into one for HDL
<Fare> Downix: DrScheme
<plonk> Downix: *chortle*
<Fare> Downix: Turbo Pascal 3 ?
<Fare> EMACS
<water> sorry, was in another channel
<Downix> Fare:  To be honest, there's a problem.  A lack of a good compiler for VHDL and Verilog
<water> plonk: yeah pretty damned formal, since it covers the different kinds of lambda-calculi and their formal properties
<Fare> you mean a compiler that dumps VHDL, or one that takes VHDL and dumps lower-level stuff (masks and suches) ?
<Downix> Fare:  dumps lower-level stuff.  Also need to do simulation of the damned thing
<Fare> plonk: what interests you about lambda-calculus?
<plonk> water: Ah - oh well, guess I'll have to go out and get a bit of background then :>
<Fare> lam-calc is a very powerful conceptual tool (or family thereof)
<Fare> but it's a tool
<water> plonk: lambda calc itself is pretty simple
<Downix> Fare:  But making an OO design tool that dumps VHDL would be nice.  But it will be time before I can make things like that
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<plonk> Fare: It keeps coming up in searches on complexity theory
<plonk> water: uhuh ?
<Fare> Downix: isn't the lower-level stuff process-dependent, and maybe even manufacturer-dependent?
<water> hm
<water> plonk: do you have a postscipt viewer?
10:40am
<plonk> water: yuppo
<Downix> Fare:  It is, that's a major problem
<Downix> Fare:  Noone ever thinks of standardizing this
<water> ok hold on, i'll get something for ya
<plonk> :>
<Fare> plonk: of course it does; seen John Tromp's page?
<plonk> Fare: nada
<water> actually, i have a better idea
<water> abi: tell plonk about jmc
<Fare> Downix: a friend of mine wrote a LISP program that went from high-level formal specs down to masks
<Downix> hmm
<water> plonk: read his papers... various formats
<Fare> Downix: long ago, in Le_LISP
<Downix> interesting
<Fare> I wonder what happened to his piece of software. Proprietary stuff maybe; but maybe France Telecom would free it up, if asked to
<plonk> water: 'kay, thanks :>
<water> plonk: his stuff includes lambda-calculus explanation
<water> np
<Downix> Fare:  Right now I just need a combined VHDL and Verilog IDE
<Downix> other than Active HDL, which is turning into a major pain
<Downix> I can deal with the VHDL/Verilog to lower-level processes later
<plonk> water: If I had to read one paper by jmc, which one would it be ?
<Fare> there are lots of $$$$$ commercial tools, but I don't know which does what.
<Downix> that's the problem, I paid good money for an unintuitive tool which is slowing me down
<Fare> plonk: I recommend the TeachScheme! project to begin with
<Fare> jmc is nice, but quite a bit dated
<water> "A Basis for a Mathematical Theory of Computation" and the related papers
<Fare> I wouldn't give it to beginners
10:50am
<water> whatever
<Fare> water: ain't that the original lisp paper?
<water> yes
<plonk> water: Ah, happy day, those were the ones I just started downloading :>
<Fare> it ain't an introduction to lambda-calculus
<plonk> Fare: Willdo :>
<water> Fare: shove it... he doesn't need to read a thesis paper or a Haskell intro
* plonk/#tunes *chortles*
<water> not yet, anyway
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* antoine_/#tunes *mutters* darkly about forgetting to log out on the work machine
<water> brb
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<water> hi out
<_out> hi water
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<water> re hcf
<hcf> re
<water> say could you locate something like a lambda-calc tutorial, hcf?
11:00am
<water> hm maybe foldoc has a decent entry
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<hcf> abi: simple lambda?
<abi> simple lambda is a simple Lambda Calculus Interpreter in java at http://www.freeyellow.com/members6/drcjt/Lambda.html
<hcf> teaches a little
<water> hm ok
<antoine_> water: Found this: http://www.jetcafe.org/~jim/lambda.html
<water> abi: foldoc for lambda calculus
<abi> lambda calculus may be sought in foldoc at http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?query=lambda+calculus
<water> hm i may have to reboot soon
<hcf> iepos has a lc page (under the oldpage dir)
<water> oh yeah
<hcf> abi: perl+lc is at http://plover.com/~mjd/perl/lambda/
<water> heh
<water> uh oh
<Fare> reboot???
<Fare> why ever reboot?
<water> yeah fare i can't use linux with my modem
<Fare> (plus not rebooting will prevent me from wasting time with halflife)
<water> pnp issues
<Fare> water: buy a real modem, sell your fake one on eBay
<water> Fare: why ever say anything Fare?
<water> Fare: shove it, handle it for me
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11:10am
<hcf> abi: java for lisp programmers is at http://scruffy.cs.umd.edu:8080/seanl/Java/AAAI99/index.htm
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<hcf> water: some lc links at http://www.myk.dis.titech.ac.jp/~mitsuwa/links.html
<water> review?
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<water> uh
<water> hi
<_> i wanna a big dick in my ass
<water> _ :)
<water> anyway
<_> i wanna a big cock in my ass
<water> do you want to get kicked, too?
11:20am
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<water> does anyone know if something's happened recently with usenet service?
11:30am
<Fare> something terrible happened: I started reading it again
<water> heh
<antoine_> Thanks all !
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11:40am
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<Kyle_L> I wonder what types of text are out there  (Sentence/Paragraph, SourceCode, ???)
<water> huh?
<water> what do you mean?
<hcf> abi: rfr?
<abi> rfr is Request For Rephrasing
<water> have you ever used TeX or SGML?
<Kyle_L> yes
<water> heh thx
<Kyle_L> I beleive the one thing that can not be packaged into fixed-sized objects is human text.
<water> uh
<water> what do you mean by size?
<Kyle_L> I would like to pack everything into objects.  Every object type has a fixed size.
<Kyle_L> Bytes, bits per object
<water> yuck
<Kyle_L> :) why?
<water> why the hell should object types have fixed sizes?
<water> that's stone age OO thinking to say the least
<Kyle_L> because willy-nilly is difficult to control.
<water> heh
<water> Smalltalk!
<water> CLOS!
<Kyle_L> why do we need variable sizes except for human text?
* water/#tunes sighs
<water> hm maybe i'd like a queue without an arbitrary size limit?
<water> or one where i can change that limit dynamically
<Kyle_L> constructed with a linked list, each element tha same size.
<water> or maybe i'd like to have an internal cache on my stream objects
<water> grrr
<water> a linked list is an object!!!
<Kyle_L> streams are not needed, they carry info that can be turned into objects.
<water> the elements are objects as well!
<water> i can't believe i'm hearing this
<water> a stream IS an object
<Kyle_L> MMmmm my definition of size is off.
<water> where did you learn OO? C++ class?
<Kyle_L> I do not care if a stream is an object.
<Kyle_L> :)
<water> but it matters
<Kyle_L> I do not like streams for the reason I stated above.
<water> in real oo, everything is an object... and that's an important principle
<water> lol
<water> then you'll run into problems
<water> or you'll make streams by a different name
<Kyle_L> again, the size definition is off.
<water> either way it's all the same
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<water> if you're going to talk like that, do it elsewhere please
<water> because you're using terms in very low-level ways
<water> a language doesn't have to be like that
01:40pm
<water> an implementation, sure
<Kyle_L> You assume too much. 
<water> lol
<water> let me see.... i know of about 10 times as many programming language ideas as you do
<water> and *i* assume too much?
<Kyle_L> I never siad anything to the contrary to what you have siad.
<water> lol
<water> ok you're just content to munge terms then
<water> but don't call whatever you're doing as tunes-like, because you'll just confuse people
<water> terms are defined by consensus for a reason
<water> blah this is pointless
* water/#tunes returns to hacking code
<hcf> water: ur hacking code?
<water> yeah haskell and scheme
<water> and maude when i reboot into linux
<water> just testing out ideas
<Kyle_L> water: Fine, I will make the distinction between my project and Tunes.
<water> why hcf? did i make your mind boggle? :)
<Kyle_L> I will admit you have 10x more programming lang ideas than I.
<water> kyle: talking about object sizes is LLL
<Kyle_L> That is why I ask questions.
<Kyle_L> I do not see how categorization is an issue.
<water> if you say that explicitly and stick with it while discussing such things, then no tunes member can object
<Kyle_L> my original question was only about text.
<hcf> water: yes, some boggledness
<water> then you don't understand migration :)
<water> text is not ascii
<Kyle_L> water: was the 'migration' for me?
<water> nor is it necessarily directly mapped to linked lists or other string-like models
<Kyle_L> I know that text is not ascii.
<Kyle_L> good, what is a good model for text?
<water> heh
<water> models are models
<water> text is whatever you happen to call text
<water> if you pick a formally-defined behavior for text, that's a model
<Kyle_L> if the word text is unclear maybe you can help me clear it up.
<water> but the tunes idea is that you should be able to migrate information between kinds of models
<Kyle_L> But my definition may not cover all texts.
<water> i don't care about "what constitutes text"
<Kyle_L> I must have a model before I do migration between them.
<water> programming only involves implementing something that is formally defined
<water> that's right
<water> but the model you choose is not what the text is
01:50pm
<water> it's just a model
* water/#tunes thinks of monty python
* water/#tunes pinches himself
<water> stop that, water!
<water> :)
<Kyle_L> sounds obvious
<water> seriously it's a very important issue even for ordinary programming issues
<water> one model for text makes certain operations simple to express but the opposite for other operations
<water> and you can never use formal models alone as auxiliaries to a "primary" model if you hope that it will make explicit all implicit aspects
<water> it's impossible as such
<water> that's why migration is an important concept to understand for tunes
<water> because without as general a notion as it, you will wind up dealing with complications due to your modelling
<water> and if you don't, someone else will
* water/#tunes pauses and returns to thinking about code
<Kyle_L> let me see if I got you:  Any model I come up with will be incomplete, so just model what aspects you will use now.
<water> yes that's part of it
<Kyle_L> is migration the other part?
<water> pretty much
02:00pm
<water> but migration is not a trivial idea
<water> and i'd amend your previous statement
<Kyle_L> the complexities of migration elude me.
<water> "just modelling what aspects you will use now" is what you are already doing
<water> realizing this is what allows you to think in higher-level terms
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<Kyle_L> I was doing this 'realization' in some aspects of my program.  I did not realize the scope.  It sounds like versioning. 
<water> how does versioning relate?
<Kyle_L> Different versions of the same model expose different interfaces.
<water> you see now you're using the word version in ways other people don't
<water> usually all versions of software derive from the same model
<water> changing the model effectively changes the application from the ground up
<water> that's why people don't like API's to change, because they *model* system services in a specific way
02:10pm
<water> do you understand why i object to your use of the word?
<water> Kyle_L: am i being unfair here, or do you understand where i'm coming from with this?
<Kyle_L> just a sec....
<water> oh ok
<Kyle_L> will you be around 4-6 hours from now?
<water> :P
<water> i don't know
<Kyle_L> Than you very much so far.
<water> it depends on a lot of things
02:20pm
<water> well at least you listen pretty well
<Kyle_L> Well, when I see you next I hope we can continue.
<Kyle_L> thanks]
<water> np
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<water> i can't get comfortable with haskell syntax it seems
<smkl> there are some problems with the indentation rules
<water> yeah that's one of the things
<water> at least HUGS is very straightforward to use
<water> it's sort of interesting when i pick up on using HUGS in a couple of minutes, but i still find common lisp very daunting
<smkl> hugs doesn't have a way to add more variables from the prompt though 
<water> hm
<water> i guess not
<water> well perhaps its done in a different way
<water> say, with monads or forking a state thread
02:30pm
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<water> heh someone ported Eliza to haskell
<water> re
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<water> hmm
02:40pm
-:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
<hcf> jesus
<water> hey! don't bring him into this! :)
<water> what was the expletive for?
<hcf> the chanserv poop
<water> oh
<water> maybe we should get tril to change it
<hcf> also, tunes needs to be saved
<hcf> ;_
<hcf> s/_/)/
<water> "saved"?
<hcf> oops
<hcf> the chanserv and nickserv poop
<lar1> Saved from fare? :)
* water/#tunes gets a Clean distro
02:50pm
<water> hm apparently someone gets to review my request before i get the distro
<water> s/gets to/must/
<lar1> Distro of?
<water> Clean :)
<water> abi clean?
<abi> clean is lazy purely functional programming language with fast compiler at http://www.cs.kun.nl/~clean/
<lar1> Heh :)
<water> i don't think they give out the source, though, but who knows
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<water> re re re
<nate37> re re
<water>   re
<water> hm that didn't align right
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<water> oh well, it was close enough
<water> hey eih
<eihrul> lo
* eihrul/#tunes ponders the need for backlit paper.
<water> xerox epaper would be fine for me
<lar1> water: Bowling with "re"s?
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<eihrul> water: i could even go for the glow-in-the-dark variety...
<water> lar: sure
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<water> eih: been toying with code today
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<eihrul> a rare occurence indeed :)
<water> heh
<water> well i've found environments i like much better than CL which are also functional
<water> and besides, i'm much less stressed out right now than i usually am
03:00pm
<coreyr> water: less talk, more code. and ill do the lurking here.
<lar1> Heh
* water/#tunes whacks coreyr with a stack of thesis papers
<water> i am soooo glad i finished categorizing these damned things
<eihrul> ugh, thesis papers!
<water> heh
<eihrul> i much prefer post-doctorate work :)
<eihrul> usually more concise
<water> the linear naming paper is actually really good for a thesis
<water> ok so it IS 156 pages long :P
<water> but at least it's not 50% symbols
<eihrul> yep, and a good bit of that is usually re-explaining whole papers as opposed to just citing
<eihrul> (you have to fill the page quota somehow)
<water> heh
* Fare/#Tunes is back from his LispM-purchasing adventure
<water> eih: you do realize how linear naming relates directly to SSA, right?
<water> re
<eihrul> yes
<water> ok
<eihrul> and that's one of the reasons SSA is so nice
<eihrul> it simplifies reasoning about expressions
* water/#tunes nods
03:10pm
<Fare> water: I remember reading a PhD thesis about compiling C for the 88k through SSA
<water> well i like how this paper goes into linear graph-reduction
03:20pm
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<water> it looks like i'm having another go tonight at getting the Slate web site updated
* water/#tunes crosses his fingers that Elric will remain sane over the next few hours
<water> lar: i'll see how well he can work with postgres, which is most likely very well, as he is a *nix head
03:50pm
<Fare> water: progress on cvs?
<water> heh
<water> yes, i've progressed to disgust with command-line tools yet again
<water> i need to hire a unix guru part-time to either teach me this stuff in short time, or have him write shell scripts to automate stupid things like CVS interaction
<coreyr> whats wrong with elrics sanity?
<water> corey: complicated.. don't ask
<water> well, bbiaf
04:00pm
<water> back
04:20pm
<Fare> fore
<water> would you care to discuss something?
<Fare> Sure: I'm designing the core language for my compiler, and don't know how exactly to integrate linear logic to it;
<Fare> is linear logic to be a static/syntactic property, or a dynamically checked runtime thing?
<Fare> (or worse, an unchecked semantic assumption?)
<water> hm
<water> i'm not sure, that's what i'm thinking about as i read this thesis
<Fare> Haskell and clean seem to say static, but then they have a full static type system, too.
<Fare> in a LISP, what would that be?
* water/#tunes nods
<water> hm
<water> well you can have a lisp with immutable cons-structures
<Fare> or is the LISP approach doomed for this very reason?
<Fare> Of course I'll have immutable cons
<water> you can also have a stateless lisp
<Fare> no, not that
<water> (no setq etc)
<Fare> I want a concurrent system, and concurrent doesn't mix with stateless
<water> hm
<Fare> if you have communication, you can emulate setq (you can express it if you also have macros)
<water> well i tend to like the monad idea in that i can relate it to the idea of my reification of stacked environments as objects/namespaces
<water> providing a state illusion by passing around the whole file system, to make a rough metaphor
<Fare> concurrent haskell has pure I/O transformers
* water/#tunes nods
<Fare> (instead of just pure state transformers)
<water> yes i recall that
<water> i haven't tried using them, though
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<Fare> I like the idea of pure I/O transformers, and think ultimately, the system should allow bidirectional travel between imperative and pure transformational views of code
<water> heh ultimately
04:40pm
<Fare> (actually, all the formal semantics for imperative programming ARE pure transformational)
<water> well they have to be
<Fare> (albeit usually with a one ugly global state)
<water> well what i've been suggesting is that the open lambda idea makes things look like they're stateful, and of course the compiler can take advantage of when things really can be simply stateful
<water> but also i rely a lot on cloning
<water> which is a source of complexity at this point
<water> oh i guess i should mention what i've been considering lately
<water> the open lambda idea (or file system idea or whatever) is not robust enough
<water> it's basically ingoring some aspect that i haven't quite formalized, but i think i know a way around that
04:50pm
<water> essentially, the object is a namespace idea enforces a single kind of ontology when you think of it in straightforward terms, but i think this should not be so rigid
<water> if you define object "structure" in terms of an external specification of semantics, you wind up with something lighter in meaning.... akin to the CLOS idea
<water> however, it's not like the CLOS idea in that in this case the objects really are namespaces in a primitive way, and that combined with recursion you lose dependence on the notion of environment as the base ontology
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> sorry
<water> np
<Fare> open lambda is real bad for compilation
<water> anyway, this allows ".." to be a quite natural thing to define, or any other namespace access that violates hierarchical scoping
<smkl> have you seen "ambients" ?
<Fare> ambients are evil
<water> however, it seems to absolutely require a rewrite basis for code meaning, which is problematic in a namespace-structured environment afaik
<water> i must toy with maude and some other systems a bit to get a better feel for this idea
<water> smkl: whose ambients?
<Fare> as long as .. is statically resolved, it may be ok.
* water/#tunes shrugs
<water> but it's a pretty dynamic language
<smkl> cardelli's i think
<water> hm yes i've seen those... didn't think much of them
<Fare> actually, in my old language designs, I wanted to be able to speak about "old" bindings of a name, about "old" values of a variable
<Fare> smkl: even cardelli can go astray
<smkl> hehe
<Fare> smkl: I much prefer the Join-calculus
<water> well Slate can handle that, as its objects are message-construction expressions
<Fare> (actually, the INRIA people have extensively explained why the ambient-style migration was evil)
<smkl> didn't they implement ambients in join calculus?
<water> there is another small problem, which is sort of invariant on the underlying basis afaik:
<Fare> but this "old" processing, and also calling an object by type "consider an integer, multiply that integer by 2..." was statically interpreted; any ambiguity levied (and preferrably man-checked) before execution
<Fare> no, they had a centralized (!) implementation of ambient calculus
<water> when one moves an object between namespaces, both the receiving namespace and the newly-placed object must have their slots set properly... in fact, this is what defines the exchange
<smkl> http://join.inria.fr/ambients.html -- this ?
<Fare> smkl: oh, you mean the INRIA people?
05:00pm
<Fare> yes, they implemented ambients with join
<water> well anyway, that's what i'm currently considering... basing the object ontology on rewrite ideas and looking at the various consequences
<Fare> rewrite is good
<water> especially considering the whole namespace structuring aspect
* water/#tunes nods
<Fare> whole namespace structuring?
<water> yeah the fact that namespace access is part of the language... in fact it's central to it
<water> you know, the "open lambda" aspect
<water> did you look at the tutorial beginnings, Fare?
<Fare> which tutorial?
<water> http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html
<Fare> oh
<water> rudimentary so far
<water> it doesn't even get  into meta-objects at all
<Fare> ok
<water> but that's because i've been working over the core concepts in my head and i'm still designing the MOP's
* Fare/#Tunes loathes any non-concurrent "object-oriented" language, and most concurrent ones, too
<water> no doubt
<water> btw, it might be possible for slate to not have a special quoting mechanism and still satisfy HLL requirements
<Fare> "tunes calls this a subcase of partial-evaluation" is misleading
<Fare> if you took it from something I wrote, please tell me where, so I fix it
<coreyr> whats concurrent?
<water> hm
<water> Fare: that's for newbies, anyway.
<water> what could i say to be more accurate?
05:10pm
<Fare> I mean, you CAN see it as an application of PE, but...
<water> well, how do i get the idea across?
<Fare> dunno; invoking PE w/o giving details can be confusing;
<water> hm
<water> alright, i'll leave it out until later
<Fare> (people who can infer the details don't need the tutorial, I guess)
<water> using an intermediate concept instead
<Fare> plus it is PE, independently from our calling it so or not
<Fare> saying that CLOS objects are made of cons cells is false
<water> hum
<water> well, what's true, then?
<Fare> they are structures, as in any decent language
<Fare> that is, unless you specifically hack metaobjects to make them otherwise
<water> gee that helps get the point across :/
<Fare> just don't mention cons cells
<water> not even lists?
<Fare> reads more like a newbie FAQ than a tutorial
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<water> well?
<water> it gets the idea across, doesn't it?
<Fare> the title is misleading.
<water> it's not like i have a lot of material to work with
<water> i don't even have numbers in the language
<water> no keywords no static or dynamic type system
<Fare> Yes ideas get accross
<water> even OO or functional doesn't apply
05:20pm
<Fare> not even primitive numbers?
<water> nope
<Fare> hum. Not needed for a prototype, but for anything beyond
<water> the implementation can do things about that
<water> geez!!!
<water> you absolute idiot!
<water> i'm not saying the numbers aren't *there*
* Fare/#Tunes needs goto 3053
<water> listen you ass!
<water> the numbering system isn't built in
<water> you can define anything dynamically based on equational specification
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<water> even the string idea is based on dynamically-constructed types
<water> hi tcn
<tcn> hey
<Fare> shouldn't it be rather (: (myPoint 'x) 2) ?
<water> heh
<water> didn't you read the explanation of ":"?
<tcn> talking about FLISP?
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<water> no, slate
<tcn> what's :?
<water> http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html
<water> it's a slate object
<water> it acts like an assignment primitive, but isn't
<Fare> tcn: is /fos from March 28 the latest?
<tcn> fare: except for what I did yesterday
<Fare> ok. What did you do yesterday?
<tcn> I wrote and debugged lots of stuff but I still haven't got an interpreter
<tcn> I can print numbers now, that's the big accomplishment :)  "." works.
* coreyr/#tunes sighs.
<water> corey: ?
* Fare/#Tunes falls asleep. good gnight!
<coreyr> Fare: night.
05:30pm
<coreyr> water: i wish #tunes was more constructive. :/
<water> it's an irc channel, not an IDE
<coreyr> water: can you answer newbie questions?
<water> of course i can
<coreyr> first,... whats concurrent v. non-concurrent?
<water> you mean as far as OOP is concerned?
<coreyr> as far as the previous conversation was concerned.
* water/#tunes scans the buffer
<water> oh
<water> concurrency is where you have control to vary when and where and how computation happens instead of non-concurrent where there is only one way to do it: the language's built-in safe way to do it
<coreyr> hmm
<coreyr> those terms dont seem applicable to the concepts.
<coreyr> from that definition
<water> which terms
<water> ?
<tcn> coreyr: welcome to computer science!
<water> heh
<coreyr> tcn: shhh.
<water> corey: which terms are you talking about?
<coreyr> concurrent: with + running parallel
<tcn> don't worry, that doesn't make sense to me either
<water> grr
<water> well the explanation varies on the programming language type
<coreyr> hmm
<water> for oop, you have a bunch of objects talking to each other to get things done...
<coreyr> yeah....
05:40pm
<water> with non-concurrent semantics there is one thread that activates objects in a sequence, sometimes recursively, but still the object responds as soon as it can when the thread gets to it
<water> (this is called passive oo)
<water> with concurrent oo, you have active objects which are themselves threads... they compute things by passing messages to each other, but they can also block messages that they receive or re-order them in an incoming queue
<coreyr> ok
<coreyr> that makes sense.
<water> it's a different perspective in FP but the idea is the same overall
<coreyr> "It's a fundamental idea of state that it reduces to a notion which is    
<coreyr> based on mutual consensus (this should be clearer later)."
<coreyr> what would you define state as?
<water> yeah that's what i was discussing earlier
<water> define state?
<coreyr> well
<coreyr> i understand general use
<coreyr> but relating to computer science. :)
<water> i don't think i can *define* the notion of state that other people use without sounding like a bullshit artist
<water> (which other people are, imnsho)
<water> i'm just saying that "what exists" even to a computer system is still just based on consensus if you're interested in the larger scheme of things
<water> (why do i still have the feeling that Fare will never like or endorse Slate?)
<coreyr> because he speaks down to you
<water> heh you noticed that, too? :)
<water> i think if i met him in person, the situation would not be so
<eihrul> physical intimidation?
<water> anyway, do you grok what i mean with state?
<water> heh no
<water> but the presence of my body would definitely affect him psychologically
<water> even if harm were impossible to derive
<water> eihrul: did you look at what i was discussing earlier?
<eihrul> yes
<water> what do you think?
<coreyr> water: i got the impression he didnt even look at the tutorial.
<coreyr> well
<coreyr> seriously
<water> he stopped looking at it beyong a certain point, i think
<water> and i don't think he understands how amateur his own writing style is :)
<eihrul> i think your definitions assume too much :)
<water> eih: which ones?
05:50pm
<water> eih: and do you mean i can't make it work?
<eihrul> no, just talking about the tutorial :)
<water> oh
<eihrul> (but fare hit on that already)
<water> well i didn't say it was great
<coreyr> heh
<water> and it's not well-advertised for a reason
<water> but anyway
<eihrul> though fare also did have another point about open lambda...
<water> more comments?
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<water> which is?
<eihrul> it is detrimental to compilation
<water> sure
<water> but that's what meta-objects are for
<eihrul> because within the compiler, anything that is observeable almost needs to be treated like a side-effect
* water/#tunes nods
<water> but the MO's...
<water> they're there to keep things opaque or unused when they need to be
<water> (among other things of course)
<water> agree? disagree?
<water> hello?
-:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving)
<eihrul> sort of
<water> got an objection?
<eihrul> not a well-formed one and not sure if its one at all
<water> trust me, i know there are weaknesses in my argument right now
<water> it would take to long to explain on a terminal interface
<coreyr> have you decided on a declarative syntax?
<water> heh i think i've decided *against* one :)
<water> seriously, the syntax is as declarative as it will get, afaik
<coreyr> is the spec coming along?
<water> i mean i don't think it needs to be different yet
06:00pm
<water> well that's what i've been discussing today
<coreyr> hmm.
<coreyr> are you ideas as they stand now implementable?
<coreyr> s/you/your
<water> nope
<coreyr> why?
<water> theoretically, they are
<water> because i have multiple conflicting implementable ideas
<water> and besides i'm coding for a very vague spec
<water> (it doesn't get any more vague than Tunes HLL :)
<coreyr> ok i havent read the full tutorial completely
<coreyr> but..
<coreyr> why didnt listSlots on myPoint list : and result?
<water> oh that was just a UI thing i supposed
<water> and yes i still haven't decided on which primitive would be best for structural display
<water> and it does matter
<water> damn it's 6pm already
<coreyr> yeah
<water> brb i have to call someone
<coreyr> kay
* coreyr/#tunes will read and prepare questions.
<tcn> crap, that means it's already 9 here
<coreyr> yep
<coreyr> dark...
<coreyr> :P
<water> well, my friend elric has wigged out yet again
<coreyr> water: hmm
<water> there goes another evening of plans
* coreyr/#tunes wont ask.
<water> web design for slate stuff
* coreyr/#tunes wont ask about elric.
<water> good idea
<coreyr> traits object?
<water> just an object that isn't used for anything but being cloned to make objects that *do* get used
06:10pm
<coreyr> a mold?
<water> nope
<water> identical to the object that you want to use
<water> you just make an object that always looks to the traits object to implement its behavior
<water> even 4 is a traits object
<water> so are all the numbers, letters, etc
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<coreyr> the tutorial teeters off...
<coreyr> :)
<water> yep
<water> that's because i haven't decided how to explain the next parts yet
<water> btw the traits idea comes from Self
<water> you can look at the Self tutorial to get an idea of what that's about
<coreyr> water: need to have a Tunes 2000 conference
<water> lol
<water> i wish
<water> we'd be lucky to get more than 5 people to show up
<water> hm what to do tonight?
<coreyr> .. /
<coreyr> what does that do?
<water> same thing as "cd .." in an OS command shell
<coreyr> the interface should be object> where object is the current object
<coreyr> itd be clearer. :)
<water> except you pick the enclosing namespace first by invoking the ".." slot, then you send it the message not to evaluate ("/") which leaves you in the object
<water> yeah the path would help i guess
<coreyr> i like the syntax very much
<nate37> a slot is a link to a object, right?
<coreyr> a slot is an object, everything is
<water> i'll keep it like you said... just the immediately enclosing object
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<water> the difference is pretty subtle
<water> for practical purposes, it doesn't matter much
<water> i'll decide on which it is pretty soon
<coreyr> a slot is an object enclosed by the current object?
06:20pm
<water> yeah that's a way to look at it
<coreyr> whats another?
<water> but along with what i was talking about earlier, slots would *really* be just a type of link
<water> sort of
<water> i'm still thinking that out... the problem is that an equational basis is a bit odd
<coreyr> i dont understand that sentence.
<water> it has to do with equational programming
<tcn> later..
<water> cya
<coreyr> tcn: bye.
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<coreyr> water: what are you doing with the webdesign?
-:- coreyr is now known as cwr
<water> dunno, that's what elric was going to help me with
<water> cwr=your initials?
<cwr> yeah
<cwr> whats the : called in words?
<cwr> besides colon
* water/#tunes shrugs
<water> does everything need a name?
<cwr> in order for me to tell its use
<water> maybe "become" or "is"
<cwr> ok
<water> or "act like"
<ult> : in what context
<water> the slate tutorial
<ult> oh, colon :)
<water> (what exists of it)
<cwr> fare will have to take slate. sadly, there will be no other options. :)
<water> well he said explicitly that he's working on a compiler for his language
<water> i don't know if that had any substance, though
<cwr> whats his language?
<water> hell if i know
<water> he probably just calls it HLL
<water> or the Tunes language
<water> who knows?
<water> hcf: any pithy comments on today's channel events?
<hcf> nope sorry
<water> hcf: or even ordinary comments?
<hcf> nope
06:30pm
<cwr> what does self do wrong, in your opinion?
<water> hm
<water> well you can't force optimization when you'd like to
<water> also you can't have functional / declarative programming be implicit when you want to
<water> and self also always gives you access to the lobby from anywhere, no matter what
<water> (not necessarily wrong things, just things that make it bad for Tunes)
<water> also i don't like the static support of the implementation, but again that's a tunes issue
<water> that roughly covers it
<water> bleh, my plans for the evening are just gone
* water/#tunes tries to figure out what would be good to do tonight
<cwr> is your webdesigner worth his unreliability? :)
<water> he's the only one i can bother irl
<water> and he volunteered
<water> all i did was describe what the tunes goal was, and what problems we have had in trying to make it happen
<cwr> is he going to be helping with just slate or also tunes web?
<water> he wants to work on tunes web stuff (mostly because it sucks, of course)
<water> he thinks Fare takes some serious drugs when he writes tunes docs
<cwr> its his french/vietnamese brain
<water> and i have my suspicions as well
<water> he's a leftist at heart
<cwr> yeah, so am i.
<cwr> i like his politics.
<water> yuck
<cwr> im sure there are those who dont though. :)
<water> i mean, i agree with him
<water> but he'll never convince anyone with the way he writes
<cwr> yeah
<water> the same goes for his papers
<cwr> hmm
06:40pm
<cwr> im positive about the project
<water> heh you can afford to be
<cwr> why me?
<water> i've spent a hell of a lot of time with the tunes people
<cwr> oh i get it.
<water> you're new i guess, and you haven't been through the ringer on the mailing list as people come and go with their fscked-up ideas
<cwr> i think its good you have your own project
<water> (including my own fscked up ideas :)
<cwr> you can do it without objection and prove your ideas
<water> i hope so
<cwr> i hope i can contribute someday
<cwr> if i didnt feel that way, id just read the logs. :)
<water> well do you have any suggestions for what i should do tonight?
<cwr> im thinking that you should try to implement soon
<cwr> youll discover issues that you wouldnt have thought of
<water> heh
<water> you know, there IS the toy interpreter already
<cwr> are you actively toying with it? :)
<water> yes
<cwr> what features are implemented?
<water> but it's not really quite right, and that's why i'm playing with other ideas right now
<water> the basic stuff from the tutorial
<cwr> what language is it in?
<water> common lisp
<cwr> the evaluator?
<water> yep
<cwr> ive browsed the tunes pages for as long as ive had internet access
<cwr> which was about 97
<cwr> err 96
<water> heh
<cwr> but me and some friends were playing with some ideas
<water> i've done the same since it was founded
<cwr> and it got me thinking about objects
<cwr> i have some ideas
<cwr> visually in my head
<cwr> but i dont know the terminology.
<water> you know i'm getting more depressed by the minute, right?
<water> have you looked at the self papers, including the tutorial?
06:50pm
<water> ping
<cwr> sorry
<cwr> i havent look at self
<water> abi: self
<abi> self is a prototype-based object system at http://www.sun.com/research/self/ or old mirror at http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/oocsb/self/
<water> look at it
<cwr> ok
<water> abi: merlin
<abi> merlin is at http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin.html
<cwr> more valuable than lisp?
<water> look at that, too
<water> well, complimentary
<cwr> ok
<cwr> well ill be back later tonight.
<water> i hope i won't
<cwr> my gf insists that i have to leave the house at sometime in my life
* water/#tunes is too bored
<cwr> so im being forced into late night shopping.
<water> my gf is gone on a trip right now
<cwr> water: cheer up.
<cwr> work on that spec.
<water> well there's no one to do anything with
<cwr> heh
* cwr/#tunes starts to say something, then shakes his head and gets ready
<water> heh
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<water> hey pac1
07:00pm
<ult> water are you here?
<water> ya
<water> why?
<ult> Can you point me in the direction of a good Squeak/Smalltalk tutorial?
<water> heh sure
<water> which in particular?
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<water> hi tilly
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<cwr> grr now shes telling me we need a list (this will be a while)
<cwr> water: you dont mind being my comp sci tutor right? :)
<water> right now, hmm
<ult> Well, I'm more interested in learning the Smalltalk language itself.
<ult> Eihrul seems to think it's suitable for a project of ours...
<cwr> water: no not right now, i mean in general...
<eihrul> sure, for a mud... with lots of objects
<eihrul> why not an OO lang? :)
<water> yeah sure, what else do i have to do with my time? >:P
<water> sorry, i'm just pissed at myself i guess
<cwr> no one said this stuff would be easy
<cwr> itd be cool if life didnt get in the way.
<ult> pppht :)
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<``water> :P
<``water> hold on i think i have a decent tutorial to refer you to
<``water> re all
<cwr> heh
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* ult/#Tunes waits
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<water> yeah except the particular server in question is down
<ult> Doh
<ult> I'm gonna go shower. BBIAB.
<water> ok i'll /msg you url's as i find 'em
07:10pm
<ult> Sure. Thanks. 
* ult/#Tunes goes to get not so smelly
<water> having a gf sucks when they're not around
<eihrul> polygamy?
* cwr/#tunes is dragged away from his computer by a nagging voice
* cwr/#tunes is away: gone.
<water> i don't really have that option in a way that is satisfying
* water/#tunes is picky about relationships
* water/#tunes sighs
* ult/#Tunes arives
<water> the squeak site is down
07:20pm
<ult> water is your girly not making you happy?
<water> heh no
<water> utl: http://www.odateam.com/links/smalltalk/s_tutori.html
<water> hm maybe not so useful as one would think :/
<water> ok here's a good one that actually works:
<water> ult: http://kaka.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~wolfgang/cosc205/smalltalk1.html
07:30pm
<water> hm i'll go out and buy a book or two on taoist body alchemy at least
<water> definitely an area i can improve on
<water> wow! i feel better already :)
<water> well i'll probably bbl tonight
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07:40pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0519
IRC log ended Fri May 19 00:00:01 2000