IRC log started Thu Mar 30 00:00:02 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0330 -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Read error to nate37[ppp-207-151-70-98.dialup.pcmagic.net]: EOF from client) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-98.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- giro [yessam@1Cust214.tnt1.bne1.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes -:- giro [yessam@1Cust214.tnt1.bne1.da.uu.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-98.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-143.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-143.tscnet.net]: No route to host) -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes will tunes look like emacs ? 07:00am -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- smoke is now known as avoozl -:- avoozl is now known as smoke -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us321.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- isax [isax@Ae84c.pppool.de] has joined #tunes -:- isax [isax@Ae84c.pppool.de] has left #tunes [] -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- tahion [dima@ghost.dorms.spbu.ru] has joined #tunes -:- tahion [dima@ghost.dorms.spbu.ru] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-3-113.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Read error to nate37[ppp-206-117-3-113.dialup.pcmagic.net]: EOF from client) -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-3-113.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-3-113.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (zzwzwzzzz) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-42.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- XeF4 [xef4@68.ppp1-15.worldonline.dk] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp197.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-176.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-176.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-19.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-207-151-70-19.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- ult [ult@user-37kbapm.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-92.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-92.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] -:- ult_ [ult@user-38lc6b1.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbapm.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- water [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes yo :) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp197.lvdi.net]) -:- farfnarr [farfnarr@schorncj.laptop.rose-hulman.edu] has joined #tunes yikes, what the hell happened to channel activity recently? hi farfnarr hello 07:10pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp02.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- vvater [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-53.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- vvater is now known as water gah hey eih got questions, farfnarr? afk a min k * eihrul/#tunes checks logs. well, I don't right now. I was just hoping to sit in on some interesting discussions of course, it looks like I might have to wait a while :c) well, it might get interesting when eih returns water: interestingly enough, channel activity is almost periodic how so? so what do you do with respect to tunes? just quick glance over log file sizes :) It's based on when water's period is... -:- ult_ is now known as ult low blow... eih: is the periodicity roughly four days? :) i don't mind farf: we work on tunes HLL ideas not really hm oh well 07:20pm -:- vvater [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-53.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- vvater is now known as water grr to repeat: well whatever we discuss tonight on the channel, i know that i must finish my responses to massimo and others on the mlist hmm bleh i suppose i should just write email if you guys don't want to talk ;) well, i don't have a particular topic in mind right now unfortunately, all my thoughts are centered around these replies i'm putting together btw, eih, compiler tip from the squeak guys (which they intend on putting into the squeak vm along with jit): put contexts directly on a stack and have them share variables in order to pass values contexts => scopes? basically, overlap the stack frames where you want to pass the data * water/#tunes nods hrmm, very similar to the sparc register window mechanism... but, it still poses a slight problem as the upper context still needs to know exactly where in the lower context the variables are to share effectively -:- vvater [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes gah otherwise you still have the same copying of the normal scheme yes similar to sparc's reg windows so i'm not sure about applicability here... :) no not copying er... what copying are you referring to? the normal copying that goes on in any language that uses a stack to pass parameters, C, forth, etc... 07:30pm eihrul> but, it still poses a slight problem as the upper context still needs to know exactly where in the lower context the variables are to share effectively oic no "no"? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-53.tscnet.net]) apparently they compile this away when they generate bytecodes -:- vvater is now known as water they claimed the smalltalk-78 vm consumed 6k using this process (on an 8086 using the hw stack as the vm stack) well, this mechanism doesn't seem too beneficial nor really applicable... any more information on it? no they're just discussing it on the squeak mlist because generally only small amounts of data are actually passed around on the stack why not beneficial or applicable? and some of this data can be passed around in registers in the first place like i said, no copying is needed niether * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. well, either: 1) the layout of the stack frame needs to be known to actually locate a variable within it * ult/#Tunes nods 2) return stacks and data stacks have to be segregated to make this type of sharing possible I'm curious, if I may interject: why exactly is smalltalk such a desirable language for this project? From what I've read so far, I haven't seen anything that strikes me as terribly revolutionary farfnarr: not smalltalk 3) the stack could only be ordered to benefit calls that have the same arguments... this optimization only works for one congruency of calls somebody mentioned yesterday that that was one of the languages being used for what, though, I don't know congruency of calls? farf: not "being used" congruent in the sense that the same sequence of arguments is used farf: its a language that i happen to use eih: well that's why they put that into the bytecode compiler anyway, it's just a thought and again, the data passed around on the stack is very small ok, well what languages are currently being utilized then it's not like i give a s*** how anyone implements a language and any large objects are passed by reference... i don't think it is worth the trouble :) well, you brought it up... not me remind me not to do somthing similar i thought i'd get a "hm ok" or a "hm i'll think about that" not "hm i think you're wrong" since i wasn't arguing well, i've thunk all there is to think about it without more information on how the process works -:- water [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] seems he can't take being refuted as much as he refutes others :) Yeah. High-and-mighty water has been boiled =) 07:40pm ok, I'm definitely thinking I'd like to one day contribute to this project, so I'm trying to get an idea of what skills I'm going to need to do so so which languages should I be learning? ult: inling and leaf routine optimizations would provide just as much benefit in this situation if not more farfnarr: as many as possible eihrul: Yah. eihrul: I'd have to agree. well, that doesn't help me right now It's less complex too. where should I start, then the review pages for languages is a good start s/is/are -:- ree [js@twisted.goodnet.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes :P sorry about that hah, interview with water no, I mean what language should I start trying to learn I know C++ asm =) but that's really it right now farfnarr: Haskell yeah, that will come next year from my studies haskell? I'm expecting to start one in my free time i'd say maude would be more interesting and easier to learn well, what are people actually using? c/c++ java, vbscript and is there any particular reason I should be learning themL ? you learn what you think is best for you interesting ideas and powerful syntax do your own research ok, what languages are people using to code this particular project? yeah well it's hard to find good ideas when there is a sea of thousands of crappy languages out there farf: lisp, c, forth, asm sheme counts, too, theoretically :) er scheme farf, that would be an invisible language are you guys trying to develop the HLL first, and then write the OS with that or what? yes that's one plan blech, hll =) 07:50pm so how much of the HLL is already spelled out conceptually? all code aside and such -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [07:52pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] you should probably change that topic url to the right one linux.com/interviews/20000322/46/ -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- water [water@tnt-9-53.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff XeF4: #TUNES (off) farf: not much on tunes hll is specified on the website I do believe I already read that article, actually i don't doubt it i'm saying there's not much more than that, unless you count slate -:- ree [js@twisted.goodnet.com] has left #tunes [] no, I was referring to ree's link. hmm, so what exactly are you guys working on at the moment? I mean code-wise -:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ water http://www.linux.com/interviews/20000322/46/ there's retro i suppose oh, I see what was going on. Sorry, I'm still new at most of this IRC stuff :c) i would code on slate, but i hardly have time/energy i spend nearly all my time working on the ideas of slate/tunes/arrow 08:00pm and making sure that i know what i'm talking about, which takes a lot of reasoning so who exactly is at the helm of this ship? -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-201.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes anyway, retro counts as part of the lll lol the whole all-encompassing project? hm that *should* be Fare, i suppose does anyone disagree? but does he actively do anything to make sure progress is being made or who's doing what? unfortunately, i am too stressed out most of the time to deal with tunesers patiently, let alone keep up an interactive email discussion of course, being volunteer, maybe that's a little tough no he does nothing but write papers trying to get a phd well, shouldn't there be someone coordinating everything? i don't know, should there? it would seem to me that coordination never hurts i joined only 1.5 years ago no one's led since i've been here I mean, I know I personally am having a hard time following the progress and progression of what you guys are doing i doubt anyone really lead for years before i actually decided to talk to the tunesers heh -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1040.javanet.com] has joined #tunes ok, so how much progress has really been made? i think i'm the only person to claim i have better ideas about tunes than Fare has you want numbers or something? no, not really the progress *is* the website -:- Bebop [kvirc@host095212.arnet.net.ar] has joined #tunes 08:10pm it's what we know about tunes ah hi, bebop so what are people currently working on? hi all i'm working on slate as tunes hll and arrow tcn works on retro tril works on some type system ideas and the website when he can as for everyone else, they work on their own ideas that seem like tunes soooo... what's this tunes thing ? mp3 pirating hm * ult/#Tunes smiles i see. hmm uhmm interesting bebop: have you checked the website, faq, and the interview thingie? * nate37/#tunes smiles no not mp3s :) I'm trying... ok ok, here it is, let me check... we're making an os based on a reflective high-level programming language at least, that's the idea -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-207-151-70-201.dialup.pcmagic.net]) I've read a couple of lines from the FAQ, and I didn't get a word of it looks like this must be in the FAQ bebop: what programming experience do you have? don't laugh: visual basic, and a bit of C you guys are a little bit higher hm only a wee bit higher have you ever heard of lisp? autolisp only but is lisp after all have you used it? yes it's a good lisp just once. A job thing. well do you grok the idea that a lisp program can be represented as lists? so this is something between an OS and a prog language, isn't it ? its both 08:20pm well, I guess I'll hear from you in the future... good luck thx -:- Bebop [kvirc@host095212.arnet.net.ar] has left #tunes [Bye] -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-224.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes hm so is there a conversation thread to resume? none 08:30pm anything to start? i don't suppose anyone cares how slate objects and messages can handle arbitrary rewrite systems -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-224.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes [] elaborate... why the f*** should you care? fine, have it your way yeah, have it my way, with leeches hanging around the #tunes channel to pretend interest when all they do is soak in ideas only to go and completely ignore them to pay lip service to the noble ideals of tunes, and to discuss banal ideas like low-level manipulation of computers in a pornogrpahic way * ult/#Tunes whacks water on the head ult: thanks for the example water dood didn't your mom ever teach you that you get more flies with honey than vinegar? who wants flies? flies steal Maybe more people would visit here and get more done here if you weren't, let me be frank, such an asshole. 08:40pm bullshit people who come here inherently will either leech or help 99% of them are leeches. our society is built around the idea of being selfish with karma just curious, but I really don't see how anyone could really leech much from this channel you already are, farf I mean, most people couldn't apply most of the ideas silence is a palpable spiritual thing oh, you mean people that are trying to learn something about the system so they can help later good to know I'm wanted even witnessing ideas is leeching water: Have you ever considered that whenever someone else says something you act like a complete and utter asshole towards them? if you don't reflect anything back the stupid thing is that your ideas are open anyway, so who cares? yes i have ult and reality is relative also, how many people could really steal them anyway? and if they did, would that really be a bad thing? farf: not stealing ideas, but karma especially if they managed to get them implemented dharma as well karma? dur hwa? farf: it's a free software project, the logs are on the web http://www.tunes.org/files/irc/ you can't possibly steal ideas from me water: You *obviously* don't want to hear anyone elses opinions because they never were mine no one has opinions, ult water: All you want to do is say 'Hi, I'm water, look at this stupid obfuscated idea I had! It sucks, but I'm going to force it on you anyway because it's got six bazillion buzzwords!' ult: yep :) water: And you can't comprehend it when people don't appreciate that. thanks, ult so what do you suggest? seriously Why are you on IRC? i mean, you can't possibly imagine that what you've said so far will help What is your purpose in being here? You claim to not learn anything, to merely push out ideas, which are 'stolen' so that people can boost their karma? looking for friends? ;) i said the ideas weren't stolen twice already and it's not about *their* karma what is all the talk about karma here? btw, you seem to think i have some sort of internal state am i a machine, then? :) could someone please explain? is it a reference to prestige, or the actual religious notion? could someone please be anything but impersonal?? oh i forgot, the point of irc is to reduce being to an ascii stream define karma for this uninformed newbie, plz 08:50pm karma is the boiling point of soup when you bleed in it while singing the entire score of 'Aida' in C-minor of course, it's also nothing like this farfnarr: It's best to just ignore water when he's like this. oh of course when i start to emote, be ware >:) ok, but ult, you used the term too, so do you think you could offer a more sensible definition? my emotions only signify my humanity, which is of course, absolutely not what irc is about or should I not even bother asking? ok, how does one ignore? you should go sing with the clowns under the light of the full moon, says the tech manual, section 4, subssection 3.4 obviously no one cares how i feel however what i feel affects how i see computers farfnarr: type "/part #tunes" that's an order, of course hey, what do you know, I found it if you don't obey, you'll be guilty of violating subsection 2.4 of article 5 of the irc handbook does karma actually have some meaning I'm not aware of in this context here? nope i just meant some spiritual wishy-washy nonsense of course nothing that you should be concerned about go back to the big corporations now so you can get your regularly received dose of reality farfnarr: Water's just pissy about something and he's taking it out on everyone. As usual. oh of course, i'm "pissy", not expressing something genuine or noble there's true banality for you, trivializing what another feels "oh, he'll get over it" * water/#tunes decides to take a small break hm this rewriting paper is pretty cool to consider * water tunes in to our regularly scheduled program from the academic department of reality, inc. 09:00pm * water/#tunes watches the slow, seeping karma interactions take place -:- SignOff farfnarr: #TUNES (Read error to farfnarr[schorncj.laptop.rose-hulman.edu]: Connection reset by peer) aww too bad for farfnarr i bet he's reeling from his karma withdrawal it's like heroin in some ways ;) though of course again, i'm spouting nonsense but otoh no one's left the channel yet 09:10pm hm fixpoints in oop languages oh yeah and for all you great psychologists who have analyzed me so well, it took me four years of intense research and critical thinking to learn the stuff i've learned so i don't appreciate the efforts of newbies at all to "try to learn in order to help" water: You picked buzzwords out of 'research' papers, figured out what they meaned, and then told everyone you were going to implement them. and i don't care who's (not) listening, because no matter what you think, no matter how intently you fellows *know* you listen when you "do" listen, you're f***ing liars ult: which is different from what Fare does how? or different from what anyone does in what way? water: Fare is not as much an asshole. of course, he's a coder like you he sucks karma like a leech like a vampire bat he eats flesh like a piranha 09:20pm his words are made of fat my words are made of blood and marrow water: Don't you wish! of course i don't wish but thanks for reminding me incidentally, just what is it that you intend to *do* for tunes? where's that language *you* started? 09:30pm -:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-174.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) good bye, my prickly pear huh? abi: huh is a statement of total surrender to another's set of reality fictions or a good way to get yourself shot huh? :) 09:50pm I'm temporily turning my reality checking off so I can figure out why u said "good bye, my prickly pear"... I understand quiker if I do that. get a life i'm obviously an asshole... all sorts of more experienced persons seem to agree, so that's probably the most important thing you can learn here * nate37/#tunes sighs u are only when u want to be how can i possibly want anything? everbody wants something thanks for that does of reality, einstein best I could do.... I don't do this too often the best? * nate37/#tunes sighs, "I could do better if I spelled right, don ask" looks more like you tried hard to make your statement sound authentic, which seems more like the worst you could do perhaps leech water: Maybe your just an asshole. of course i am water: Usually when everyone else in the world thinks your an asshole, you are. * nate37/#tunes agrees and i'm sure people in russia would agree of course god already damned me heh what else would he do with such an asshole? 10:00pm or maybe i'm just lonely and can't figure out how to squeeze blood out of a stone-seeming world but no, that's me just being "pissy" * water/#tunes swallows another good tablet of his daily medical dose of reality >>> nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-174.dialup.pcmagic.net] requested unknown ctcp AWAY gone to play ball..... don't ask from #tunes water: Have you ever considered psychiatric counselling, or at least, medication? >>> nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-174.dialup.pcmagic.net] requested unknown ctcp AWAY from #tunes yes medications might help there's no feeling like knowing that you're the most despicable thing in the universe don't be so hard on your self. psychologists say i'm incredibly intelligent and well capable of handling the ideas i process depends how u handle them ult: have you considered throwing yourself into a wall of steel spikes? Be so hard on yourself. You suck. Maybe you ought to kill yourself. maybe i should but what is "should"? furthermore, what is "is"? Kill yourself, water, please. ult: leave the channel, please throwing yourself into a wall of steel spikes isn't a good way to handle a idea :) no, but considering it *is* a good idea water: Why don't you? ult: why don't you? he has no motive. water: All you *ever* do is bitch about this and that, spew random ideas about slate -- which is crap, by the way, it's a hackish conglomeration of poorly integrated buzzwords. err.. at least I think he doesn't water: Every time someone tries to understand you or help you, you attack them. oh of course you're right, ult that's why you're the King of Tunes water: Why do you bother trying to do *anything*, you will obviously fail, because you have no idea what your doing and your ego won't let you learn. :) very astute of you King of Tunes? No. But I have friends, I have learned to take criticism, I have grown past 13 years old. oh growing is sooo important sure it is otherwise you wouldn't die or pollute the world with noise or u won't progress ur knowledge or fuck your sister no one owns knowledge I didn't say owns progress is a paradox you can't possess knowledge, then. is that "better"? u can tap into it. 10:10pm you're naive * nate37/#tunes bows knwoledge isn't a resource, you are you belong to knowledge Hey water, if you use a 22 to shoot yourself, you still leave a decent corpse, and your almost gaurunteed to die painlessly. you exist because the universe knows you do ult: you could try thinking about what i talk about sometimes u want to die with pain? but you won't of course water: You could think about what you talk about sometimes. heh good one (Yes, it *is* possible) i'll write that down for future reference ult: do you love me or not? You don't just have to say the most hurtful or inane or stupid thing you can think of -- it *is* possible to act in an 'intelligent' manner. intelligence has nothing to do with inanity or harm it can reside with them just fine That's simply not true. Look at yourself for proof. wow this is much more interesting than ordinary conversations here