IRC log started Mon Mar 27 00:00:01 2000
<water> well if you can't find people who differ, then you're out of luck, right?
<Fufie> sortof.. that's why geeks invented the net
<water> yes but even geeks have a ceiling
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0327
<water> everyone has a ceiling
<Fufie> sortof
<water> you don't even know how far my ambition goes, do you?
<Fufie> but don't mix culture with ones special field of knowledge
<water> i'm not talking about knowledge
<water> i'm talking about capacity
<Fufie> ambition can be nice in fitting portions.. too much and it becomes a pain for everyone around you
<water> damn how convenient that there's no common word for it
<water> nice?
<water> oh  yeah the point of living is to be nice, of course, especially to stupid americans
<Fufie> have you read any fransiscan writings?
<water> lord knows they're really nice to the planet
<water> i can't say that i have
<water> though i most likely have read an equivalent somewhere
<Fufie> I recommend it.. I was very ambitious once.. but I learnt a lot abut patience.. the parts of humility I try to understand but I can't quite grasp them ;)
<water> i've travelled through humility many times
<water> and patience
<Fufie> yes, but it has to be put in the right context and one needs a certain perspective to get it
<water> oh of course everything must be correct about oneself before reading something makes any real sense
<Fufie> reading the writings of real whizzes who talk about humility is interesting
<water> which is shorthand for "once you feel like i do, you'll realize that i'm right"
<water> yes i know it is
<Fufie> no, it is not.. 
<water> of course you're right about that, too :)
<water> you do know that we're both wrong, right?
<Fufie> it's not the same as "once you feel like i do, you'll realize that I'm right".. it's about trying to understand the other side.. not as a mind-game.. but truly trying to get it
<water> yes i've been there
<Fufie> mind-games lose their charm pretty quickly
<water> sigh
<water> you're preaching to the choir
<water> i don't know how to communicate it to you, though
<water> except to agree, but then you'll never see what i mean anyway
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us246.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> since i don't even mean anything
<Fufie> do you read a lot of classical texts (Augustine, Aquinas etc)?
<water> hey hcf, slate is almost 4 months old
<water> yes i have
<water> and much more
12:10am
<hcf> wow, hadnt thot of that
<Fufie> did you try to understand them?
<water> yes i definitely did
<water> i find it insulting you would think otherwise
<water> i also tried to disagree with them in all sorts of ways that they would have agreed with
<Fufie> not really.. most people skim Augustine but never understands him
<hcf> water: what do u consider as slate's birthday?
<water> hcf: the naming date
<Fufie> but you've obviously been everywhere and done everything.. so I'll shut up
<hcf> water: so around: '2000.0108:<hcf> water: slate?' ?
<water> well if you think i'm arrogant then my job is done, fufie
<water> it wouldn't be right to look good in a discussion, would it?
<water> hcf: that'll do
<Fufie> water: arrogant?  maybe you try to be arrogant.. it doesn't suit you
<water> well it just seems a bit dis-heartening that i've been working on making slate support tunes for the last few months and i still don't have anyone who can help
<water> i'd rather try to be arrogant and fail than do the saem wrt humility
<Fufie> why do you think noone jumps and down and volunteer to do slate for you?
<Fufie> s/jumps/jumps up/
<water> because they don't understand it or tunes
<water> the tunes group is a mockery of the idea of tunes, it seems
<water> conceiving an idea and never going forward with it is a disgrace to the human race
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-156.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
<water> oh great
12:20am
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-207-151-70-156.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes []
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
-:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (z)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Read error to hcf[me-portland-us246.javanet.com]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (lecture)
-:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr])
-:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-241-79.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (foo)
-:- jagmstr [jagmstr@ps14fsd.willinet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff jagmstr: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp56.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-171.s425.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-30.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@208-58-193-25.s279.tnt9.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb)
-:- smoke [smoke@16dyn2.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[208-58-193-25.s279.tnt9.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- smoke_ [smoke@16dyn2.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-240-30.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (zzz)
-:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us323.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (parkinson)
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- tcn [r@cci-209150250142.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-210.s210.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Read error to AlonzoTG[207-172-184-210.s210.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-130-145.s526.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
>>> AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-130-145.s526.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] requested PING 954184760 from #tunes
<tcn> i'm here
<AlonzoTG> om 
* AlonzoTG/#tunes has new modem...
<AlonzoTG> My braine is being shorted out by the ammount of info I'm getting over the internet.
<AlonzoTG> I hope that by cutting back I will be able to do more usefull things. 
<tcn> what did you upgrade from?
<AlonzoTG> 33.6 (28.8 with new ISPs)
<tcn> oh so you get 44 or so now?
<AlonzoTG> new external modem + new video card = the price of windows 98.
<AlonzoTG> something like that. 
<tcn> win98 blows
<AlonzoTG> well my new video card doesn't work with windows 3.11
<AlonzoTG> It ROOLS for DOS games but fucking microsoft never bothered to make fucking VESA drivers...
<tcn> heh.. i'm at work today and things keep screwing up.. then it blue-screens and says "this program (doesn't say which one) is causing your computer to freeze up. Terminate it? (Y/N)"
<tcn> So I say "it's probably Explorer" and hit Y
<tcn> and the OS shuts down :)
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> yeah. internally MS os is the best in the world, But it has too much kludge to even be practical...
<tcn> internally??
<tcn> maybe in the marketing dept...
04:30pm
<AlonzoTG> I have examined the internal driver structure of windows 98 and it is MOST impressive...
<AlonzoTG> I wish it wasn't bogged down by so much *$#!+
<tcn> a first step
<tcn> I have the same problems with Unix but at least I had the option of trashing all the crap
<tcn> I'm sorta back to using Linux again
<tcn> it has nicer text-mode features than freeBSD
<AlonzoTG> ATI has shitty version controll.
<AlonzoTG> hmm...
<AlonzoTG> I liked EE in BSD. =)
<tcn> heh.. EE is everywhere
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp56.lvdi.net])
<AlonzoTG> Well EE beats the fucking shit out of VI and I never would have guessed it even existed on linux. 
<tcn> yeah, you can grab it
<tcn> Unix is Unix
04:40pm
<tcn> I oughta grab EE and see how it compares to Pico
<AlonzoTG> Has anyone done a critical design analysis and review on linux yet?
<tcn> go figure :)
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp18.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<tcn> my biggest complaint is the kernel bloat
<AlonzoTG> yes 
<tcn> it's gone from 1 meg .tar.gz to almost 20
<AlonzoTG> there needs to be a standardized "standard Boot System"
<tcn> and it's mostly support for various hardware which should be distributed separately
<AlonzoTG> That you download your platform drivers, (3mb)
<AlonzoTG> and then seperately you download your system services,
<AlonzoTG> Combine them and get the kernel you need...
<AlonzoTG> At least I have 56k now and can afford to download larger stuff...
<tcn> right
<tcn> i'd fix linux if I had the energy :)
<AlonzoTG> Well there needs to be a large-scale design review...
<AlonzoTG> I would also like to see it unified with *bsd....
<AlonzoTG> What I propose that someone here writes a proposal and then submitts it to one of the hot IPOs...
<tcn> bsd and linux already share some code
<AlonzoTG> yes. that is good. 
<AlonzoTG> there should be one single "unix" standard...
<tcn> fuck the IPOs - that's whats ruining linux
<tcn> companies profit from *proprietary* designs and that's contrary to the hacker spirit
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> well who can we get the 500,000 that it would cost to do a thorough design review...
<AlonzoTG> ?
<tcn> Alonzo: /pub/Linux/apps/editors/terminal/ee-1.4.1.src.tgz
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> I don't care.
<AlonzoTG> I don't have a working linux...
<tcn> what are ya running now anyway?
<AlonzoTG> I bought mandrake 6.5 and now 7 is out. =(
<AlonzoTG> 'doze 9.11
04:50pm
<tcn> what's mandrake?
<AlonzoTG> mandrake is an extension of rednux lihat.
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hates *.tgz
<tcn> can't wait till I finish retro3
<tcn> everything I need on a single floppy
<AlonzoTG> once I break out of my daze I will try to finish my prototype OS. 
<tcn> hmm
<tcn> 1440 blocks on a disk.. maybe 150 blocks of source, 16 of kernel, the rest is free space.
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-56.s310.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<eihrul> tcn: so, where's retro3 now? :)
<tcn> everything up to the Forth interpreter is 100% done
05:00pm
<tcn> I hit a stumbling block with CREATE..DOES> and CONSTANTs.. you can't just rush through that part.
<eihrul> me as well, with allocation
<tcn> in retro1 and 2 i didn't do justice to that stuff.
<tcn> constants (and variables) are more straightforward in subroutine-threaded or native-code forths, compared to the traditional indirect/direct-threaded models.
<tcn> but CREATE/DOES> is still tricky.
* eihrul/#tunes sighs.
05:10pm
-:- Kaufmann [newbie@200.224.105.249] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Foo
05:40pm
<AlonzoTG> bar
<Kaufmann> ah, good
<AlonzoTG> wut?
<Kaufmann> I thought everybody was dead or something
* AlonzoTG/#tunes haz gnu modem...
<AlonzoTG> not too reliable though... =\
<Kaufmann> GNU modem?
<tcn> hey alonzo, EE's no good. No blocks :(
<tcn> maybe AE?
<AlonzoTG> blocks??!?!?!??!
<AlonzoTG> it's a viking external; classic AT command set. =)
<tcn> alonzo: I mean cut & paste
<AlonzoTG> it's gotta be there!
<tcn> only 1 line at a time
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> oh... 
<AlonzoTG> well hack the source!
<tcn> combine ee and pico :)
<tcn> 'joe' is pretty good
<tcn> no updates for 5 years
<AlonzoTG> should I go join the DMCA protest tomorrow on the steps of the capital?
<Kaufmann> YES
<Kaufmann> fight for yer rights, Alan-boy
<AlonzoTG> where are you physically?
<Kaufmann> Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
* AlonzoTG/#tunes wonders how he'll get there with no money... =\
<AlonzoTG> okay...
<AlonzoTG> I'll have to burn some gas I don't have to get to the metro and take a traine down to the mall...
05:50pm
* Kaufmann/#tunes has just been pretty much forced into a new .com start-up. Luckily though, I have complete control of the technical aspects, so I want to make it into something which is as painless and easy for me as possible. It's pretty much just a glorified database, not much else. Any suggestions?
<Kaufmann> I've been considering Zope
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-150.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
<AlonzoTG> hmm...
<AlonzoTG> FBSD sounds like a good platform for such work...
<Kaufmann> FBwhat?
<tcn> hey nate, weren't you asking about forth the other day?
<nate37> tcn:  hey, a little
<nate37> tcn:  thinking about how I will aproach it more than asking
<nate37> tcn: I want to put it on a 286...
<nate37> tcn: first I'll have a small multitasking kernal...
<nate37> tcn: and forth will be a process
<tcn> nate: cooperative multitasking?
<AlonzoTG> 286 is shit.
<nate37> tcn: premptive
<tcn> can a 286 do that??
<Kaufmann> blargh... run-time kernels are eeevil
<nate37> tcn: isn't minix preemptive?
<tcn> maybe but it'll be slow on a 286
<nate37> hmmmm
<tcn> cooperative, you only need to save about 4 regs
06:00pm
<nate37> I have to go...
<tcn> cooperative tasking is a simple add-on to Forth
<Kaufmann> I prefer the Tunes approach of only one "process" ever actually running
<tcn> see Pygmy forth and F-PC
<tcn> both on forth.org's site
<nate37> will u be on around in 4 hours?
<tcn> they're good
<tcn> 4 hours.. nope
<nate37> hmmm
<tcn> you can mail me at tcn@tunes.org though
<nate37> k
<nate37> how long wil u be on?
<tcn> you might be interested in retro.tunes.org too.. my forth-os project.
<tcn> another hour at most
<nate37> ok... I'll cya
<tcn> later.
<nate37> s/I'll/I'll email u
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-150.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes []
06:10pm
<AlonzoTG> 286 can do full preemptive multitasking with as much as 16 megs of ram...
<AlonzoTG> Is it worth it? no!
<AlonzoTG> I will be doing my prototype in realmode but it won't be as extensive as that...
<AlonzoTG> I can't code well enough to do that anyway. =\
<tcn> 8086 or 386, forget everything in between
<tcn> 8086 mode is nice and easy
<tcn> just don't use >64k objects :)
06:20pm
<tcn> whatever you do, write an interpreter first!
06:30pm
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (A stranger is just an asshole you haven't met yet. -- Meet the Fascist Moderator at www.osopinion.com)
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Read error to tcn[cci-209150250142.clarityconnect.net]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-161.s415.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-112.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
-:- ult [ult@user-37kbaoo.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fufie[tunnel-44-30.vpn.uib.no])
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-112.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes []
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-37kbaoo.dialup.mindspring.com])
-:- ult [ult@user-37kbag6.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #TUnes
-:- whey [ab@209-6-184-124.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<whey> hola
08:10pm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations whey!" :-)
<whey> hihi
<whey> cool interview
<AlonzoTG> whatchyaneed to know?
<whey> need to know? lots of things, heh
<AlonzoTG> which interview is cool?
<whey> oh the one in the topic
<AlonzoTG> I don't see any topic on my end.
<whey> heres the topic i see:
<whey> *** Topic for #tunes: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate Language
<whey> +http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || interview w/ water
<whey> +http://www.linux.com/interviews/
<whey> say try  /topic 
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1003.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
08:20pm
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes http://www.tunes.org || Slate http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Interview w/ water http://www.linux.com/interviews/
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> open source is good.
<AlonzoTG> Linux is bad.
<ult> yes
<ult> open source itself is good but in practice it has flaws
<ult> 1) No one actually -reads- the code so the code rots, and programmers tend to be unskilled at writing clean code, and are merely concerned with results.
<AlonzoTG> yes...
<AlonzoTG> the hacker approach rather than the engineer approach...
<AlonzoTG> I would like to start a linux review project to carefully analyse the Linux source.
08:30pm
<whey> analyze in what way?
<AlonzoTG> figure out how it is now 20mb zipped source...
<whey> the kernel?
<AlonzoTG> determine its exact specifications, strengths/weaknesses...
<AlonzoTG> yes, mainly the kernel but also the core runtime daemons too.
<whey> i guess the core is mostly drivers
08:40pm
<AlonzoTG> init, chron, inetd.....
<AlonzoTG> stuff like that...
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-133.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
<whey> anyone here know about binary decision diagrams?
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-203-161.s415.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com])
08:50pm
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-133.dialup.pcmagic.net] has left #tunes []
-:- SignOff whey: #TUNES (Ping timeout for whey[209-6-184-124.c3-0.wth-ubr1.sbo-wth.ma.cable.rcn.com])
-:- smoke [smoke@16dyn2.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-27.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- nate37 [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-134.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [11:57pm]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net
-:- smoke [smoke@16dyn2.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0328
IRC log ended Tue Mar 28 00:00:00 2000