IRC log started Fri Feb 11 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0211
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<moebious> hello?
<abi> hello is a multi-threaded operating system written in Standard ML and can be found at http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/~esb/prof/proj/hello/
<moebious> i'll be dambed
<moebious> dmm ad
<moebious> tunes?
<abi> hmmm... tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA
<moebious> system-independence?
<moebious> system independence?
02:30am
<moebious> programming language?
<abi> somebody said programming language was built atop common lisp yes
<moebious> programming language?
<abi> i think programming language is built atop common lisp yes
<moebious> programming language?
<abi> programming language is built atop common lisp yes
<moebious> common lisp?
<abi> i heard common lisp was an industrial strength language meant and designed for complicated programs and have lost some beauty but is really powerful and people have put lots of thought into it
<moebious> common lisp?
<abi> common lisp is an industrial strength language meant and designed for complicated programs and have lost some beauty but is really powerful and people have put lots of thought into it
<moebious> common lisp?
<abi> i think common lisp is an industrial strength language meant and designed for complicated programs and have lost some beauty but is really powerful and people have put lots of thought into it
<moebious> what is lisp?
<abi> lisp is ((simply) (perfect))
<moebious> what is lisp?
<abi> i think lisp is ((simply) (perfect))
<moebious> what is abi?
<abi> i heard i was the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' infoslut
<moebious> how intresting
<moebious> linux?
<moebious> reflection?
<abi> reflection is a property of a system that can refer to itself and manipulate its state or rough on your brain
02:40am
<moebious> proprietary
<moebious> proprietary?
<Fufie> proprietary is something bad
<moebious> yea
<moebious> i'm looking at the tunes website
<moebious> its evil like a R.A.Wilson book.
<moebious> so what comes after tunes?
02:50am
<Fufie> real songs?
<Fufie> some guitar
<Fufie> maybe a piano
<Fufie> long-haired brit singing "Imagine"
03:10am
<moebious> dammit
<moebious> i cant sleep
<moebious> argh!
04:40am
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<smoke> re
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05:40am
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<rares> the link don't work
<hcf> what?
<rares> take the extra > of the end
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<rares> there ya go
08:00am
<hcf> as i recall, the <>'s were tril's idea, something about how clients parse links
<hcf> rares: whats ur opinion of slate's navbar?
<rares> kina tiny but it's the one that looks the nicest.  Bigger just gets ugly. Frankly I'm starting to really like looking at text over pictures.
<rares> maybe a little bigger might work
<hcf> it uses the <small> tag, u think plain size, same as regular text?
<rares> try it
08:10am
<hcf> so http://www.tunes.org/~nef/tmp/slate-home.html would be perfect?
<rares> yeah it does look good :)
<hcf> k, any other suggestions?
<rares> reverse the design
<hcf> how so?
<rares> Info links at top
<rares> i'm not sying it'll look good I'm just thinking
<hcf> oh yes
<hcf> iow, toc at top not bottom
<rares> right
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<hcf> thats my preference too
<hcf> i forgot to mention it to water
<rares> how's it look
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08:20am
<rares> I understand why he did it that way but at that point it makes wore sense to wrap aroud the toc
<rares> The thing I wouldn't lke to see is a use less front door
<rares> I hate the way sites have to package their shit before they give it to you
<hcf> do u have some links to sites/pages that r done right in ur opinion?
<rares> t.o :)
<rares> Info right in your face
<hcf> t.o?
<rares> themes.org
<hcf> hows http://www.tunes.org/~nef/tmp/slate-home.html now?
<hcf> one reason, i think, that water put the toc at the bottom, is that its the part of the page being worked on
<rares> i like the text at the top because it gives people the main fo first but it's better wrapped a round
<rares> main info even
<rares> besides Slate and Mobius are just the beginning
<rares> what's he going to do when GNU tools are ported to slate which to me looks like the only viable form my interface blurring ideas are going to survive in
08:30am
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* Fufie/#tunes hopes one day computer systems will be intelligent enough to figure out what they do themselves and document themselves.. true reflection :-)
<smoke> fufie: that'd be nice yes
<smoke> the complot theory on slashdot concerning the DoS attacks being set up by microsoft is interesting
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11:20am
<Fufie> and about as realistic that clinton is really the pope and is a pakistani
<Fufie> s/that/as/
<Fufie> MS is evil, but they didn't do this
<smoke> fufie: probably not, but i meant that the theory itself was interesting
<Fufie> is the theory that clinton is the pope and is really a pakistani, also interesting?
<rares> But they would try to push the ant-Linux/Solaris msg
<Fufie> yes, but people know Mickey by now.. we know they are pathetic whiners and pathological lier
<Fufie> +s
<smoke> fufie: i'm more concerned with the paranoia of US :)
<Fufie> the problem is that Microsoft lost
<Fufie> they lost the OS war
<Fufie> soon they will have to fight with opponents of their own size
<rares> Now we need to fix the Freenices so they keep their spot
<Fufie> if you need a computer for regular stuff.. go for a Mac
<Fufie> if you're a professional user of some sort, go for Un*x
<rares> yes Mac OS X
<rares> Darwin
<Fufie> preferrably yes
<rares> Amix is cool too
<Fufie> the reason Mickeyboys lost is because they lost the developers
<rares> Amiga Unix
<rares> r u serious?
<Fufie> and the sysadmins
<rares> you mean our admins
<Fufie> I am very serious.. Mickeysoft lost because they lost their hold on developers and sysadmins
<smoke> anyone here have libggi+svgalib+libmikmod installed ?
<Fufie> smoke: no
<Fufie> svgalib requires root
11:30am
<rares> I thought you meant MS pissed off their developers
<smoke> fufie: yeah, svgalib is evil. fbcon or kgi then? :)
<Fufie> rares: no, I mean the developers around the world :)
<smoke> (we've done an oldschool intro for libggi+libmikmod.. http://www.casema.net/~smoke/intro-0.0.8.tar.gz)
<rares> you realize that still leaves a big hole we need to keep those devers happy
<Fufie> yes
<smoke> fufie: there's still a big group of developers using windows products
<rares> maybe I should drop all my projects and port GNU to tunes then go from there
<smoke> fufie: they lost the sysadmins alright
<Fufie> I am not speaking of the wimpy developers who think visual basic is a good thing and that word macros are real programming
<Fufie> I am talking of the real developers who build the infrastructure
<Fufie> the vb programmer is an end-user
<smoke> fufie: you may be right that the major part of those windows developers are of no use
<smoke> fufie: i wouldn't know
<Fufie> the bright guys who leave colleges today will not be happy with windows..
<Fufie> and it's those guys who will bring along the change, torpedoing Mickeysoft for good
<smoke> leaves us with the hardware
<rares> well no we still have schools and parents to deal with
<Fufie> intel has obviously changed sides
<rares> well duh they're not stupiud
<rares> i still don't think intel is necessary a complete ally
<rares> necessarilly even damned toothache
<Fufie> intel dislikes being MS' pet brother
11:40am
<rares> pet gerbil you mean
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> intel sucks.
<thomas> hi
11:50am
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations thomas!" :-)
<thomas> :)
12:00pm
<thomas> abi, combinator?
<abi> i don't know, thomas
12:20pm
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<present> hows it going eihrul
01:20pm
<eihrul> hmm, it's going
01:30pm
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<ult> hi
* ult/#Tunes pokes eihrul in the ribs.
<present> ult[]
<ult> um
<ult> ultbox?
<ult> gn0 my phr13nd, 3y3 th1nk n4wt
<present> ....yah...........
<ult> /-/3H
<ult> you $|-|@|_|_ /=[-ar My elIte S~|~yLe
<ult> Or...at |_ea5+ my E/_1~|~E iRc 5c/>1Pt!
<present> bwaahhaha
<present> yew are the l33t3st
<ult> you know it ;)
<present> what you typed is probably legal intercal syntax
<ult> *cackle*
<present> itz the sieve of erasthmus !!
<ult> heh
<ult> i want the sieve of erasmus!
01:40pm
<smoke> erasmus? :)
<smoke> arosthenes perhaps? :)
02:00pm
<present> right :P
<present> the sieve of crispus attics
02:10pm
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<ult> qhmm
02:40pm
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<rares> hey eih: I had freaky idea
<rares> turn tunes into a replacement for Java
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04:00pm
<rares> turn tunes into a replacement for Java
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<tcn> hey
<rares> turn tunes into a replacement for Java
04:10pm
<tcn> dvorak kbd feels weird :)
<tcn> onteuh
04:20pm
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<water> Foo.
05:00pm
<water> hey all
<tcn> howdy
<water> hi tom
05:10pm
<water> darn it, where is everybody? no one wants to talk?
<tcn> if yru'll pardon my dvorak kbd
<water> hm?
<tcn> gotta bite the bullet sometime
<water> wtf?
<tcn> this layout really makes sense
<water> what layout?
<tcn> dvorak
<water> oh well yes
<tcn> but i'm still rather slow
<tcn> i'm also playing w/ clienux
<water> sorry, no conversational interest for those subjects for me
05:20pm
<tcn> me neither
05:30pm
<hcf> hey water
<water> hm?
<water> oh hey
<hcf> minor html thing, do u like the navbar being a font size smaller then plain text?
<water> i don't care
<water> right now, i'm in "step back and look at the big picture" mode
<hcf> oh, well
<hcf> got a couple of faq suggestions
<water> k
<hcf> how does slate relate to tunes/*ll and arrow?
<water> heh
<hcf> these r the same as what the tunes ppl asked, so
<water> yes i agree
<hcf> expect them to be asked again
<hcf> i would suppose the tunes hll page should mention/link to slate
<water> not until it really exists
<hcf> the concepts exist and r somewhat doc'd, theyre worth a mention
05:40pm
<water> yeah and the lisp code does support quite a bit
<water> well what do you think of the big picture with slate?
<hcf> what is the big picture?
05:50pm
<water> what you think it is :)
<hcf> unification of the best things into something greater
<water> nothing?
<water> oh
<water> god i hope so, but i'm not sure my ideas are working out well enough
<water> i.e. perhaps the integration isn't coherent enough
<hcf> too much at once?
<water> i'm not sure
<water> generalization at the proper level seems to be the key
<water> for instance, i'm not sure what bmo's are really good for, as for advantages over self-behavior-describing objects
<hcf> simplification?
<water> well, as was said concerning combinator languages: sometimes an over-simplified set of primitives makes working with/around them more complicated
06:00pm
<water> so the issue for me is unresolved
<hcf> whats wrong w/ self-behavior-describing objects?
<eihrul> water: i am awake now :)
<water> hcf: i'm not sure precisely
<water> hey eih
<eihrul> water: well, as i see it, bmo can be used for a lot of things...
06:10pm
<eihrul> water: for instance, if you wanted to add transparent mutually exclusive access to objects, you could do it with bmos
<eihrul> water: if you wanted to add distributed message passing, you could do it with bmo's..., etc
<water> yes that's what i was hoping for
<eihrul> among the other uses such as security and mutability, etc
<water> but it mirrors the class/object distinction
<water> (sort of)
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> well, er, doh
<eihrul> i misread your statement
<eihrul> (i thought you were just questioning for what bmos could be used for in general)
<eihrul> as opposed to their advantages over self describing...
<water> it'd just be nice to have a clear answer to an FAQ like "how are bmo's fundamentally different from classes?"
<water> oh
<eihrul> one of the advantages of prototyping, is that even if you have class-like functionality
<eihrul> it can be dynamically changeable
<water> sure
<eihrul> so even if bmo's represent a sort of class-like hierarchy...
<eihrul> atleast this hierarchy can be dynamically relinked (and meta-spaces can be switched)
<water> hm
<eihrul> if you wanted to make a distributed object a simple object or vice versa, all you'd need would be to switch a link
<water> and Top can be bypassed as for the bmo inheritance hierarchy, as it's now specified
<eihrul> self-describing behavior is only useful when meta-behavior is expected to be constantly associated with a specific type of it
<water> hm
<eihrul> and i only went with self-describing behavior because it was easier to implement for now
<eihrul> just a starting point
<water> so we're fundamentally distinguishing behavior from (?)
<eihrul> er self-describing meta-behavior
<eihrul> excuse me
<water> so far, ?= a grab bag of things
<water> hm ok
<eihrul> henceforth, mb => meta-behavior :)
<water> k
<water> have you been thinking at all about how concurrency would work semantically?
<eihrul> truthfully, i have not thought on concurrency at all, never crossed my mind until now
<eihrul> perhaps i will :)
<eihrul> water: you have any opening thoughts on the issue of concurrency?
<water> ok, because using objects as threads and possibly processes would be a Very Good Thing (TM) for attracting support
06:20pm
<water> well, as long as you have some background in concurrency in other oo langs, i don't have much to say
<eihrul> actually, i did read one of jecel's paper on self/r... which had some ideas on the subject
<water> really? where?
<eihrul> just in the papers section of his page
<water> oh
<eihrul> trying to find the paper...
<eihrul> grrr, can't seem to find it
<eihrul> it was one of the first papers listed, i believe
<eihrul> there were others i meant to read off his site as well that seemed relevent
<water> ok, well anyway
<eihrul> hmm, i think i'll add bmos to the lisp code tonight
<water> any protocol that works will do
06:30pm
<eihrul> hmmm, so concurrency, continuations, rewrite are left, i believe...
<eihrul> anything else?
<water> heh
<water> actually, i'm thinking rewrite can be left out of the language itself
<water> and continuations aren't something i've given too much thought
<eihrul> well, they seem to violate object-orientation
<water> no they don't
<water> in fact, they help quite a bit
<eihrul> if an object's inputs/outputs are considered an interactive stream, the future of computation cannot be easily known
<eihrul> or, hmmm
<water> true, but continuations are usually just references anyway
<water> unfortunately, i'm no continuation guru
<eihrul> there's a good section on them in ANSI Common Lisp
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<water> hm i'll look
<eihrul> er, it might have been On Lisp
<eihrul> it was one of the two
06:40pm
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* water/#tunes is reminded to look through the clos mop spec again
<water> i wonder if classes could be made like bmo's?
<water> no, it doesn't make sense
<water> hm clhs seems broken
<water> um i think continuations are a scheme thing
06:50pm
<eihrul> they are
<water> ok
* eihrul/#tunes ponders how much brain damage he has caused himself due to lack of sleep.
<water> heh
<water> read the /. today? :)
<eihrul> well, every article you see on the brain says something to the effect of not getting even 8 hours of sleep has repurcussions on the brain
<eihrul> so, 6 years at 1-4 hours of sleep a night...
<water> in high school?!?
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> (well, junior-high as well)
<water> why? coding?
<eihrul> it used to be coding, but now it's reading :)
<water> heh
<eihrul> ever since i started researching OSes the literature / code ratio increased without bound
<water> heh
<water> i guess slate didn't help with that :)
<eihrul> not that i mind
<water> well keep in mind about concurrency that re-write seems to cover the concepts
07:00pm
<water> rewrite covers a hell of a lot, but i'm not sure about sticking with an idea that seems to clash with the notion of name-space
<water> although one re-write system definitely coincides with the notion of namesapce
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<water> hello, oo
* eihrul/#tunes needs to read more on rewrite.
<eihrul> any sources of papers you recommend?
<water> maude stuff and functional-logic languages
<water> curry seems one of the best of the latter
07:10pm
<water> abi: lemon is a functional programming language with inductive and coinductive typing at http://www.cis.ksu.edu/~bhoward/lemon.html
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* eihrul/#tunes appraises the size of his paper queue.
<water> heh. i wonder if we scared o-o off
<water> eihrul: don't get everything i mention to you
<water> hm lemon has serious semantic limitations
<eihrul> like?
<water> the co-induction system isn't general enough, mostly
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07:20pm
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<rares> hey I have a question: what is the likelihood tunes might replace Java
<rares> ?
<water> heh
* eihrul/#tunes bops rares on the head with a rolled up hardwood clue-stick.
<rares> I'm serious
<eihrul> such a comparison is criminal, at best
<water> java can't be replaced by something that doesn't exist, otoh :)
<rares> not the comparison
<rares> I'm just saying Sun blows
07:30pm
<eihrul> java is an inextensible imperative programming system...
<eihrul> whereas tunes is a useful, never-the-less expedient system :)
<rares> exactly completely unsuited rto the tassk
<rares> Java that is
<water> squeak happens to be a potential java-killer, if only it could break the smalltalk stigma
<eihrul> well, disney would have to actively hype squeak...
<water> but java's really about big dumb corporate computing
<eihrul> Sun's hype is probably the only reason for Java's success (note: probably)
<water> perhaps they will soon, when they release all the projects they have for it
<eihrul> though, it'd also require training users to expect more out of their computing environment
<eihrul> as it is now, i don't see squeak making a signifigant difference in the way Joe Average computes...
<eihrul> (because they haven't been taught otherwise)
<water> yes i guess so
<water> the same could be said for tunes in fact
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<water> Joe couldn't tell the difference between smalltalk and tunes
<rares> Gah BSDers are still living the Unix wars
<eihrul> the user/programmer gap just needs to be bridged
<eihrul> before the chasm is established :)
<water> yeah that's why i've been looking at vpl's over the last few years
<rares> User/programmer gap can be bridged if we throw parents out of the education sytem
<eihrul> (on an individual basis)
<water> rares: true, but it would cause too much havoc
<rares> not id I hire the kids in my Linux/BSD store and give them traning benefits along with the usual perks
<rares> not if even
<eihrul> if computers themselves were used more frequently as learning tools, computer literacy would increase drastically i'd wager
<rares> Word Processing is a crime
<water> insert "properly" in "were used"
<eihrul> that was inferred
<eihrul> because using my school as a model, we have 2 computers in every classroom...
<eihrul> plus numerous computer labs
<eihrul> they're almost *never* used
<eihrul> and even if they're used
<eihrul> they're not used in productive ways
<rares> take some sociology course strart a school
<rares> The BSD developers have had different motivations. The NetBSD group
<rares>                         (www.netbsd.org) has concentrated on making its system run on as many different
<rares>                         platforms as Linux; today it runs on more than twice as many architectures. NetBSD
<rares>                         is also the only free Unix operating system that comes with support for the
<rares>                         next-generation Internet Protocol, IPv6. 
07:40pm
<rares> oops
<eihrul> oops
<eihrul> control-z is not good to press...
<air> uhh doesnt linux have ipv6?
<rares> yeah
<eihrul> afaik
<air> and what platforms does netbsd support that linux dont?
<rares> and supposedlyy NetBSD runs on twice as many arch's as Linux my ass
* water/#tunes contemplates why someone would hype a *bsd
<rares> NetBSD probably supports -4 platforms that linux doesn't support (note the double negative)
07:50pm
<rares> Yes lets see PalmBSD soory I don't see it
<rares> last but not least show me a Linux distro that can't run the apps other Linux distros can (aside from hardware limits and older libraries)
-:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Ping timeout for tcn[cci-209150250141.clarityconnect.net])
08:00pm
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* eihrul/#tunes growls.
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<ProLogic> hi air
<water> (not a music channel)
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<air> ProLogic: hi, do i know u?
<ProLogic> no, you shouldn't since you can't see ppl that are viewing your website :P
<air> heh, well i sorta can
<ProLogic> heh
<ProLogic> well go check then
<air> access logs :)
<ProLogic> I was just on :P
<air> can i help u?
<ProLogic> just wanna ask if your os runs on an x86 ?
08:20pm
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<air> yes it does
<eihrul> that's like asking if windows runs on an x86....
<ProLogic> oh, hello eihrul
08:30pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0212
IRC log ended Sat Feb 12 00:00:01 2000