IRC log started Sat Jan 22 00:00:03 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0122 -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes abi: cmu? i don't know, dalvarez does anyone know the address of the ftp-server of Carnegie Mellon University (the old add was wb1.cs.cmu.edu) ? 01:00am ftp.(cs.)cmu.edu? nope yes, ftp.cs.cmu.edu results in a connection to WWW.LB.cmu.edu which hasn't the service avaiable (blame the guys who set up that bind stuff) ftp.cmu.edu without cs has no DNS entry at all try a mirror eg? abi: mach? dalvarez: i haven't a clue so what mirror could I use? doesnt flex handle the mach stuff now? see tunes-review-mach oops see tunes-review-os-mach 01:10am I'd like to gaather information about the MIG and matchmaker langs too gaather -> gather -:- herbi [herbi@slsdn51p25.ozemail.com.au] has joined #tunes k, i'l see what i can dig up check flex's site 1st doesn't matter any more.... looked at that OS's review archive of tunes.org and found enough infos to read pretty complete that thx anyway NoKernel idea behind tunes results in 10000% preformance gain - lol that's cool -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (reading that stuff now) 01:20am -:- SignOff herbi: #TUNES (bye bye) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) me yawns 02:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-133-241.s241.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- bineng has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || slate || dopl dopl was nice yes 04:30am hmm it took unnaturally long time to compile jikes today 05:10am 05:20am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-133-241.s241.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] thank you :-) 05:30am -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp139.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-9.ici.net] has joined #tunes oops -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-9.ici.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-9.ici.net] has joined #tunes 09:00am -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.130.107.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes -:- bineng_ [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (Read error to bineng[j141.ryd.student.liu.se]: Connection reset by peer) -:- bineng_ is now known as bineng -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-9.ici.net]) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us332.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar1 is now known as lar-afk -:- lar-afk is now known as lar-afk-eat -:- lar-afk-eat is now known as lar-eating -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes greetings 11:10am -:- acse [acse@sundiszno.sch.bme.hu] has joined #tunes -:- acse [acse@sundiszno.sch.bme.hu] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- washort [washort@d131.narrowgate.net] has joined #tunes abi: OIL? well, OIL is basically an AOP framework for lisp that is in development by laurent martelli or at http://laurent.penguinpowered.com/~laurent/oip.html abi: AOP? i heard AOP was at http://www.parc.xerox.com/csl/projects/aop/ or aspect-oriented programming or just a special case of re-write logic 11:30am * smoke/#tunes is frustrated by c++ being the only practical language for the project i have in mind smoke: ow. *surely* that can't be the case smoke: if it is, i want to hear about it, i've never heard of C++ being the most practical solution thanks i want to build a diskmag, a tracker and a pixel painting program what OS/platform? linux, p100 all three need a decent gui that can run at a high framerate like, GTK? =) unlike gtk+ :) i believe it has tools for that sort of stuff hmm. the project i have in mind consists mainly of building a gui *shrug* never done much GUI work myself because the execution speed is very important to me not many languages apply.. well, the GTK ppl builit it in C.... i'm considering C, but it'll be real ugly code Qt went with C++, and you can see how *that* turned out. ;-) smoke: have you considered ObjC? no it's at least nicer than C++. hm can it be mixed with C as easily as C++ can ? yes hm interesting 11:40am in fact i think it's easier, no need to fool around with namespaces and such i've also considered functional languages, but it takes too much time to learn those first heh In my limited experience, functional languages are not well-suited to "normal" GUI programming. smoke: what do the other linux diskmag writers use for a lang? hcf; i haven't seen a diskmag for linux yet well there's a port of Hugi for libqt/kde, but that's not exactly what i'm looking for programming a GUI you'll necessaryly have to do low-level work, C should offer you the best optimization possibilities here dalvarez; yes, but for the event-handling for example and widget-building it would be nice to use a hll and the eventhandling shouldn't take up too much cpu time most existing solutions use polling anyway... smoke: i've found that ObjC provides enough of that -- it supports the target-action paradigm, etc washort; what's that ? :) -:- SignOff washort: #TUNES (BBL) dalvarez; the handling for one event shouldn't take too much cpu time.. i tried guile which couldn't handle a slightly complicated routine within 1/70th of a second (which is about what i'm aiming at) tell me more about what you're aiming at will it be of direct use for the tunes project oh sorry, it probably won't be the indirect use of it might be that i'm showing interest in a decent highlevel language with no OS at all a GUI wouldn't serve anyway... * bineng/#tunes is here now * eihrul/#tunes thinks worrying about framerate for a disk mag is insanely ... eihrul; that's exactly what most people think. that's why i felt the frustration so why are you bothering? eihrul; i like demos * eihrul/#tunes laughs. it's a fucking diskmag it's not a demo it's a diskmag about the linux demoscene and it should have the same feel as a demo smoke: do you want to devel a complete new GUI sys or will it be based on X or sth you mean full of blatant hacks and useless functionality? demos in protected environments... dalvarez; it will be based on anything that can handle a framebuffer. i'll probably use libggi for the lowlevel graphic system eihrul; yes 11:50am smoke: and ggi is fast? :) ggi goes through innumerable layers of indirection why not just go and write for DOS? :P libggi doesn't incur any noticable overhead you said you were concerned about framerate i am well, you need to get rid of ggi then no, why ? you need to get rid of libraries period :P because it'll slow your framerate very little. i can spare 10 clockcycles a frame ;) overhead is a lot more than 10 cycles that's about the cost of just a null call that's about what it does * eihrul/#tunes yawns. overhead is anything more than zero cycles of anything ...low level programming paradigm no 1 one call to an svgalib routine oh well, i'll crawl back under my rock thanks anyway ): :) for what? i was mocking you ;) grr * dalvarez/#tunes thinks some ppl have too much time, so they spend it on low-level diskmag GUI programming hehe i wanted to spare time by doing one gui for three different programs but - i admit it's a silly hobby. why not use X ? are they really as performance critical? oh if i use libggi it runs in x11 too but to me it's best enjoyed in fullscreen at a lower resolution and a decent framerate it's nice in dga with x11 in a low resolution at 8bpp too uh, why? what exactly is in a diskmag for the 'demoscene'? eihrul; because i draw pictures in a low resolution eihrul; graphics, music and articles about discussions like these need some basic X11 code or are you experienced? why do you need all that for an article? afaik, ascii works fine though i'm somewhat partial to postscript dalvarez; oh that's no problem. my problem is that i don't know what language to use to build the lion's share of the gui in ocaml? i heard ocaml was a language from ML family with support for objects and modules at http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/ eihrul; it's more about the atmosphere.. 12:00pm uh, all this worry for atmosphere? when i read... i'm looking for content, not gimmicks s/worry/hobby it should be somewhat natural that the content is over important that and coupled with my extremely short attention span i can't read things very well when i have distractions :) but with a backing set of gimmicks, as you call them, other senses are pleased too but this doesn't work for short attention spans... short question aside: does anyone know how to copy and yank arbitrary text amounts in emacs there shouldn't be distractions.. that's why i was aiming at the constant framerate of scrolling.. jerky scrolling in netscape always distracts me uh, music and animations and stuff like that are distractions irc is a distraction etc dalvarez; C-space to set a mark, M-w to copy and C-y to yank ? speaking of which eihrul; good background music doesn't distract imho.. and there won't be animations except for the scrolling a region is defined as the stuff between two marks, right? eihrul; it won't be Quake with articles spread across the floor if that's what you're thinking :) dalvarez; between the cursor and the mark dalvarez; there's only one mark in emacs smoke: was about to ask you that... thx ocaml may be nice eihrul; are you familiar with common lisp? yes i'm interested in what differences cl and ocaml have well, with common lisp you'd need a cdmag smoke: could u plz use : instead of ; in this channel? abi: lambda calculus? no idea, dalvarez i don't think you'd have much luck fitting everything in.... i know the difference in syntax, the type system and some little things.. but what i'm mostly interested in is what difference there will be in the `design process' abi: eihrul;? eihrul; are you familiar with common lisp? hcf: why? is. s.o. able to tell me s.th. about lambda calculus starting with what it is =) hcf: i've learned to use `;' to fool unfamiliar irc clients to refrain from nick completing or doing weird things smoke: lisp is more expressive imo eihrul: :) reading OLI docs and there it's mentioned hcf: aha hcf: i'll try :) as well as in some other texts related to tunes http://www.tunes.org/~iepos/ start there searched for lamba on it... nothing s/lamba/lambda eihrul: is your real name Brent Kerby? 12:10pm dalvarez: read the first 5 links dalvarez: off his page smoke: no who's Brent Kerby on irc then? lambda match on third ... thx iepos, silly eihrul: never seen him here doesn't mean he hasn't been here he mostly is on the mailing list abi: seen iepos iepos was last seen on IRC 1 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes and 22 seconds ago, saying: "(S K S)"? [Thu Jan 20 16:25:00 2000] aha i'll follow up his advice to watch an mfx intro -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (bbl) %-) : 'if you know "if X then Y" ' .... what could the quoted expression be replaced with ? 12:20pm -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn176.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes re -:- Kaufmann` [newbie@dial736.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes As expected, I've come up with a new project "X | Y" - results in one of both ; "X & Y" - results in both; but what is "if X then Y" expanded to? Kaufmann`: what project? well it seems that the US gov't and corporations decided to start a witch hunt on "dangerous" members of the computer-literate community. I don't want to have to worry about such basic boolean shit just because s.o. can not express him/herself clearly - so would s.o. be so kind and give me an advice please does that mean you're next? This means anyone who's not willing to play nice with them. dalvarez: read read (perfect) you asked i answered So this project (tentatively called "Hacker Aid") is an organisation to provide shelter, work and financial aid to refugees from the US's repressive regime. dalvarez: in that context i think (X -> Y) does not expand what are you talking about? smoke: but it is used as logical statement dalvarez: it could be a boolean statement Kaufmann`: a brazilian-based organization, i take it? Kaufmann: I asked what lambda calculus is and got the hint to look at some docs where all is explained from the beginnings dalvarez: if y follows from x it's true, else it's false Kaufmann: but there was a strange statement eihrul, no, a worldwide network Kaufmann`: world - us, of course eihrul, yes, minus US, minus any other country that tries to pull the same shit as the US are currently trying to smoke: then it'd yield "if you know TRUE|FALSE ...." the idea is eventually to take over a small island an institute Hacker Country in it :) j/k "... and institute", even dalvarez: depending on the context, that may be the case socialist government? Kaufmann`: where giving birth requires a license... yes! 12:30pm LOL eihrul smoke: there is no more context than that... think I'll skip this section (why can't they just explain boolean operators as anyone else does) dalvarez: grin dalvarez: they're not boolean operators necessarily the idea is basically to make sure that no Zimmermans take place anymore AND, OR, XOR, NOT and stuff and not shit like "if something then anotherthing" as statement well, it's not quite the same eihrul: explain me that * Kaufmann`/#tunes is just trying to follow the conversation dalvarez: you can't express if-then statements as and/or/not operators easily -> is the "follows-from" operator. <=> is the "if-and-only-if" operator. dalvarez: it's about saying that if foo is true, then bar is true, or what-not :) I wished I were able to do that in C programming last days as I wanted to pass a bool over a decition level boundary in a nested condition... smoke, unless they're short-circuiting ;) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250142.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes kaufmann: i was thinking of saying something about relativity theory and fourth dimensions actually :))) smoke, LOL anyway who here is not in the US or in an absurdly repressive regime? "if ( boolean result <- if ()" like in the bools would have been nice I'll continue reading then -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pyro[cci-209150250142.clarityconnect.net]) Kaufmann`: abi? unless you consider linux a regime, which it could be so... LOL eihrul * smoke/#tunes is in holland from reading Slashdot, one would get that impression, yes :) apropos repressive regime: despite fitting the requirements very well I didn't get a job as IT-Consultant last days cause I count as minor aged and unconscious in ger and need supervision EGADS whaddayaknow, Nutscrape crashed again 12:40pm dalvarez, also, your writing skills need improvement... j/k they where xupa-hot to get me but the law fucked us both (the offer remains till my 18th birthday) so I'll have to go to school and learn pascal programming for dummies LOL dalvarez I think my writing skills are acceptable as English is foreign to me and I'm just starting dalvarez, where are you? ger -> germany ah care to join Hacker Aid? don't blame _me_ for writing as I'm continuing improvement and spending nearly all my free time reading in the local universities library ( but if whe have a damn fucking educational system where we read no books and get dumb in 13 years what can I do) okie okie notice the "j/k" at the end of the sentence kaufmann: you may as well start a *aid kaufmann: i don't think the problems with hackers are fundamental Universal Aid? not fundamental so? I just find it ironic that the US be considered a place from which people have to flee why so? the us is governed by hoomans... 12:50pm not gods :) well it's ironic because a lot of people like to tout the US as the land of the free * smoke/#tunes chokes uh, i haven't heard that touted outside the national anthem * dalvarez/#tunes thinks australia is unbeatable in freedom (service-society if not farming and much telco) - alice springs would possibly rock the climate diags are the best and it's desert * dalvarez/#tunes likes desert well, I'm off anyone interested in Hacker Aid can email me at rnedal@olimpo.com.br -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd / as leaves fall on still waters / she is here no more.) 01:00pm searched for informations about that squeak thing Fufie said would be probably used for tunes and I found a Smalltalk-80 derived Multimedia-Monstrum that could impossibly be ment :) -:- SignOff dalvarez: #TUNES (Ping timeout for dalvarez[212.68.72.98]) 01:10pm -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250169.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- Voice` [pray@asy73.as200.sol.superonline.com] has joined #tunes -:- Voice` [pray@asy73.as200.sol.superonline.com] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Excess Flood) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES ( ) -:- bineng [bineng@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) * bineng/#tunes is irc'ing thru telnet from Oberon on top of win98 anybody here? yes 02:50pm have you tried Oberon? barely Do you know how to maximize the window so it covers the whole screen? in oberon, no with X, yes ok 03:00pm quiet today -:- lar-eating is now known as lar-studying 03:20pm yeah :( -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes 03:30pm -:- craxy [mibin@62.11.105.75] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-172.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-172.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us938.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- lar-studying is now known as lar1 -:- air is now known as air-IS-NO hmm i thought we can have long nicks? What did you want yer nick to be? air-IS-NOT-HOME Just make it 'airless' :) why bother? who cares? hcf: i do cuz ppl keep changing there nicks and it bugs me -:- air-IS-NO is now known as air People don't like when I do that? Ok, I will stop doing it then * air/#tunes is GONE ( NOT HOME ) -:- SignOff bineng: #TUNES (zzz..) 04:30pm eihrul: You here? -:- water [water@tnt-9-67.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hello Hey water! sup? hm trying to clarify slate to tunes apparently they've mis-interpreted some things i've said how surprising there must be a class somewhere on how to communicate with technical people 04:40pm any suggestions for me in that line? (or am i hopeless :) how important iz to explain to tunes@ ? s/iz/iz it/ i don't know if they totally mis-understand it, then they won't learn anything from what i'm working on at all and no one will help perhaps u need a mediator (but then, they wouldn't help me if i were drowning, it seems) like whom? :) tril darn it, i'm not in correspondence with him lately icuc, http://www.informatik.fernuni-hagen.de/import/pi4/erwig/papers/abstracts.html nice anything else to suggest? dont concentrate on tunes@ 04:50pm sigh i have to maintain this abolutely precise distance from tunes, it seems no closer, no farther preech to the quire, iow those who grok arrow um... isn't the maxim "don't preach..."? water: my opinion probably doesn't matter much, but get slate up and running and then approach tunes@ Think figurately yeah, but the ppl who dictate that maxim dont deal w/ tunes@ heh water: I read the arrow-doc, didn't get all at first attempt, but will try again ok specs and code anyone got qualms about the slate spec so far? hcf: in a way yes :( the slate info I have seen looks ok as a starting point, but don't decalre it gospel any time soon yeah, i've got some work cut out for me, making it more specific as all languages, slate will need iterations anyway.. making anything gospel before a working implementation is imho stupid sure 05:00pm oh cool, a tunes thread about atg's "fuzzyness" hey eihrul! eihrul: What does clementine use for a filesystem? hey eeih lar1: no clue... i haven't seen a thing no matter how much i wish i might :) eihrul: Hmm, ok, what was emk gonna use? 05:30pm shrug, i never planned to take emk that far and emk is long dead anyway Hmm, ok * eihrul/#tunes needs to standardize a smallish lisp. mmcarthy's original lisp? :) water: well, i'd like some way to extend perceived types in the system such as 'cons', 'string', 'fixnum', etc no small task since having them exist as types but having no way to add one's own makes types an essential black box at the worst, a caste system may be introduced perhaps have prototypes ala self eih: have you looked at CLOS? Fufie: sure, but it isn't integrated with the type system it's the old type-system which isn't integrated with CLOS okay, so where can i find the class fixnum? :) besides, you probably only want to use a few bits for the simplest types eih: you can specialise on fixnum within CLOS water: though, the distinction between such objects as fixed precision numbers and objects that can't be fit in registers and must be shared is kinda ugly as well :) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-67.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-93.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes sometimes if i think of integers as pointers to constant objects it makes it all seem better... yeah i like that view as well but then when you think of it that way, addressing semantics come into play for comparison and such so it starts seeming less clean well, it could be a reference instead of a pointer small difference * Fufie/#tunes takes a nap.. good night how would one explain notions like comparison like less than and greater than? s/comparison like/comparisons such as 05:40pm * eihrul/#tunes pings water. because less than and greater than is not something that can be performed on other object references (aside from floating point objects) water: still there? -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-93.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-10-139.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hmm, if you define less than in terms of a search through predecessors until you find a given object (if found, is less than, if not found, is greater than or equal) but with arbitrary precision integers you can't define things that way, doh search would never terminate you can if you don't implement them and if you don't rely on inductively-defined algorithms you'd have to search the successors and predecessors in parallel e.g. there's a co-recursive definition of the reals (or just concurrently) though i suppose <(=) and >(=) don't make much sense outside of integers and doubly linked lists 05:50pm any ordering should have them * eihrul/#tunes nods. er, any sequence i suppose water: but how do you define > in the presence of something like a singly-linked list (i.e. cons)