IRC log started Thu Dec 9 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1209 12:10am * Fufie/#tunes yawns.. new morning -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn254.delft.casema.net]) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn25.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug -:- tmf [tmf@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn25.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn25.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hmm.. lots of bugs fixed already.. should get to work soon.. *yawns* 04:10am * zarq/#tunes is away: gone god morgen 06:00am morgen I have actually managed to get to work now that's a big accomplishment -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.174] has joined #tunes Shalom! hi kaufie 06:10am *bzzzt* -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (There's nothing wrong with UNIX that a complete redesign and rewrite won't fix.) 06:20am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-88.s88.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf19.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[207-172-49-88.s88.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-88.s88.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (smokie has no reason) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-96.s350.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf17.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (User abort with 5 Ctrl-C's) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-88.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn144.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes hi 10:40am Noone awake? 11:30am -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Downix[d-gnaps-88.ici.net]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial617.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes FOO! Hey, who was it that was bitching about his company's name here, some time ago? 12:40pm what company? I think it was called Ptah anyway, I was thinking about cool company names, and I came up with some good ideas "FUBAR Technologies... when we screw up, we screw up /big time/!" -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-230.ici.net] has joined #tunes And I'm already working on a mock-up site for "The Cthulhu Corporation: Awakening the evil gods... for your satisfaction!" hey Downix 12:50pm hey -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial617.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial745.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes got disconnected :P it's ok so what's up? Nothing much, trying to figure out an API layer for comm between a built-in CPU and a built-in chipset sounds nasty nah, it's how a computer works 01:00pm I guess :) designing one tho is a pain anyone tried/used flash? flash? tmf, not worth it unless you're a web-"artist" speaking from the perspective of a former web-"programmer", of course 'www.titoonic.dk/3dflashlab/' wait... we're talking about Macromedia Flash? right? yepp Proprietory and thereby pointless I think it is a cool demonstration that html/java is not quit efficient I just got freaked out when you didn't point him towards the Macromedia place tmf: HTML/Java is not, REBOL tho could enhance it and XML as well rebol is interesting, yes, but ... Downix, "Proprietory and thereby pointless" -> how do you get away with being so radical? I ask because I agree completely, but whenever I say something like that, I get my ass flamed calm down kauf, you'll get your ass flamed! :D 01:10pm Kaufmann: Simple, proprietory standards will always guarantee isoolationistic tendencies, it's only natural. A single company cannot possibly distribute to every platform ever made that could possibly run. At least in an interconnected ffield such as thew web this is true It may be ultimately a pointless sidetrack, but its nicer than most such pointless sidetracks downix, greate! All they have to do is make an "opening" in it. Like cgi is in www tmf: On a surver end, in a closed environment, proprietory has it's place. But in an interconnect field, it laguishes Look, I'm not protecting macromedia here - I'm just saying that they fucked up less than most people. Learn something! so true... They fucked up in a big way, they made closed software w/o any chance of keeping up as their competiton rushes ahead ( check out the site, though, it rules! ) brb downix, where can I check out the competion? tmf: Beats the hell out of me, I have no clue what "Flash" does kewl! I know that Shockwave just annoys the hell out of me on a web site 01:20pm even when I can view it through WINE mme too hates bells and wistles, but once you have the plugin ... -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us307.javanet.com] has joined #tunes are you on unix, downix ? tmf: several versions Right now in Linux Flash is basically animated vector graphics + sound on a Web plugin I also do the BSD-thing, QNX and AmigaOS Hmm yeah, have you ever used Fantavision on amiga? it's vector graphics and tweening. I have, yes flash is the same++, and it does streaming and you can "program" in it with io and stuff. I've seen (silly) games created in flash :) still not what I'd call omni tho * Kaufmann/#tunes is leaving now... buh-bye bye Kaufmann -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Kaufmann's First Law: Kaufmann's Second Law is true. Kaufmann's Second Law: Kaufmann's First Law is false.) tmf: I still find it all silly, make an open standard then sell server enhancements for it system building tools are not good enough to make open standards. look at java. * Downix/#tunes nods, true Java is also a closed standard, as Sun proved eighter you have functionallity or you have security ok, but it illustrates point :) yup 01:30pm * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug -> oops? * tmf/#tunes tries to send a message * tmf/#tunes succeeds! ( that was a little display of not-very-smart-ism on my behalf :) 01:40pm hehe fufie, you here? 01:50pm downix, are you working on a tunes related project? Somewhat, I'm designing hardware the tunes project is helping me decide what I need for an OS for it ok, what are the hardware requirements? De-centrilized processing customized processor cores for most of the work, thereby relieving the integer unit for the work it's best suited for Gakuk! hi what's up doc? tmf: Makes designing an OS a bit more interesting well, os'es on this side of town are supposed to be hardware independent but performance is always an issue Right I like Tunes, I admire it's goals 02:00pm I don't see any OS as being 100% hardware independent, but I see how it's software can be personally, I would like a multiprocessor thing with share ram right Well, we're multiprocessor w/ shared RAM, but each processor is customized sure, each processor could do it's own thing, audio, video, I/O, memory, OS int, OS fpu, vector (maybe), and a plug-in accel CPU but I'd like multipple "integer units"! ( but that's the trend, right? :) We can have multiple int units, that's what the accel CPU is for. Depending on the accel controller chip, we can have between 1 and 256 accel CPU's so you could add cpu's like you add ram? Right depending on your accel controller chip that's like a meta cpu, or master chip? master chip what's the curren status of your project? works in a similar method to the Alpha/Athlon EV-6 multi-cpu setup Right now we're begining work on a simulator to begin work on an OS * tmf/#tunes nods and mumbles :) the hardware design is mostly done, but we need more debugging, which is what the simulator is for are you planning on a particular port? Like one of our team just uncovered a glitch that would have locked up the system No, we're not planning on a particular port rebol is intended to be puttable on arbitrary architectures * Downix/#tunes nods rebol is interesting, but I can't get it to work on Linux, only on my Amiga and it's not too bad a language tmf: now I am here.. just got back from a "glløgg-night" at the institute gløgg fufie, at HiB? yep It's a logical language. hehe 02:10pm downix, ... by Carl Sassenrath! tmf: have you quit your studies or did you finish your degree? tmf: be's busy working on REBOL and OASYS fufie, I quit :) why? I was sort of fed up. sounds familiar, so I spent a year studyying political science :) That's a way to burn time. nah.. it wasn't too bad * Downix/#tunes is politically active. hehe but now you're back! yeah. * tmf/#tunes is an quiet anarchist :] my friends at the institute say I belong at the social science faculty, while people at the social science faculty say I belong at the science faculty well tmf, I want performance, but having a CPU-independent program library would be nice. Too bad they're against each other downix: make a SSC :p downix, have both! SSC? Socratic Symbollism Correlation system eh sufficiently smart compiler tmf: I've been thinking on that, having a platform-independent OS w/ a way to integrate with the platform. One idea I had was having all of the OS calls go through libraries, that way the libraries would do the automatic converstion needed hmm right!!! hmm could work yeah, slip in an extra abstraction layer between laguage things and hardware things * Downix/#tunes nods performance would be hurt tho 02:20pm yes But I'm partly doing this already, my hardware is 100% flexible. To get "VGA" mode requires such a layer the trick is, I guess, to weave that extra layer into the code before doing optimisations - but that could be dangarous too I'm a macro assembler fan ! Personally I like asm * Downix/#tunes is turning into an ASM whore at this rate It's years since I wrote anything in assembler, but it was a joyful, worryless time if you know ASM well enough you can make a super-fast system I know C learning LISP LISP is nice I need portabillity - so, just between us, I'm using C ( the next portable ting to assembler :) * Downix/#tunes nods Better than BASM ? BASM was the language between ASM and C ok C is dervices from it They could call it CarcASM :) hehe BASM was called B as well as ASM was A so C was the next-stage of it -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.99] has joined #tunes heard the story ok ur talkin bout bon? s/ur/u/ Yes I looked at V2 too bas it's for the wrong CPU for me 02:30pm Linux is almost totally wrong many things are almost totally wrong They work, Linux is very pragmatic But I want something more elegant fufie, what's S14 ( and why the h*ll do you have to use subscript in its name !) do you want to know what it means? yepp! Stig's Sufficiently Sane, but Subtly Silly Student Serving System. Surprisingly Suitable for Stupid Students Surfing Sites. it has an Aspect Language A14: funky! what's that A14 about? heh An Amusing And Affordable Aspect Abolisher And (Yet) Another Angle to Approach Agonising Achilles heels. is it a working language? hmm, looks more A11 than A14 yes A12 whatever S14, A14 and the component language K14 work ( it was A14 last time you checked ?) K14? mibin, it's probably in Norwegian K14 is an object-oriented language where I use monad-simulations and constructs that A14 understands is there example code available ? not publicly available no maybe later at the very least it will be in my thesis which will be public * Fare/#Tunes is back hmm 02:40pm fufie, what's you're thesis about? I don't know popular answere! well, I don't You spend three to five years pretending you don't know, and then you spend the rest of you're life pretending you do :) either about hypermedia-systems, aspect-oriented-programming, patterns in dynamic languages or a combination of the aforementioned * tmf/#tunes LOL three to five years? -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[62.11.103.99]) -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes fufie, I'm sort of adopting the word 'aspec' somewhere in my work. What's the common definition of it in retaltion to programming? you mean 'aspect'? yes http://www.parc.xerox.com/csl/projects/aop/ I hate that stupid logo they have found.. I know, I've been there. But I'm still thinking: what the h*ll is it? AOP, I mean an aspect is a higher order problem which can not be modularised but affects several parts of a system I get the weaving thing, I guess, but I still feel that they're saying: wouldn't it be nice if so and so was possible it is possible if you have the right constructs and an extendible language ok, so aspect is somehow defined by the problem it solves. I held a two-hour seminar at the institue about it in november.. it's more a way of thinking then a set of language constructs ? it is a way of thinking and solving problems that require new constructs at a higher level.. just as object-oriented programming needed new constructs compared to procedural programming 02:50pm oop is limited to the object-view but doesn't for example capture methods in an orthogonal way so, it's scalable, and that's a point in itself if you want to add memoization to methods you must do it manually instead of something like "forall methods add memoization" most oop-people don't get it though sure, but you could say: add memoization to method if 'method' is an object and a class method is an object and a class brb (someone else picked it up) ? yeah, but you _can_ actually do that! in some languages you can do that yes or at least it is easier to add the mechanisms needed there because the languages are extensible so, the conclusion is that oop is limited but not allways that limited?!? I don't get it! oop is limited (but I'm probably considered an oo person ) what's the limitation? can you say "for all methods of class Foo: memoize" in an oo language? hmm how would OO work in a hardware system like mine? in TOOL you definatly can I don't know hardware well enough to answer that properly, Downix have you got an implementation of TOOL or a specification? C++ no, java no ( but I don't consider them quite OO ) I have a working something, but no specs Fufie: Nope, right now we're trying to get the whole system complete tmf: can I let a method inherit a method-superclass with certain abilities? sure tmf: and operate on method-level? method level? (the Specification is still under NDA for now) -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.105.175] has joined #tunes 03:00pm you can treat methods as perfectly fine object. so I can say in your system: memoize(number::+) ? and you can treat them as perfectly regular methods in english please :) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp177.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes ok.. can I do: (do-methods (x 'Foo) (add-tracing x)) for example? -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ or even nicer: (map #'add-memoization (methods 'Foo)) hi tril :) hi you would say 'method is memoized' after having built the proper 'memoization' object. i guess tmf: the point is that most oo-languages lack full control of methods and the ability to update them without resorting to changing the source-code but that's most oo languages. tmf: if I am in a debugging-situation, I would want to add e.g a before and after-method which gives tracing-info for the method.. this must be cut'n pasted in oo-languages -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial167.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes no, this is actually very nicely doable! that's most yes.. I know of one (maybe two) exceptions that actually work though Tril! * Fare/#Tunes has been assigned by his boss on the Tunes LLL tril: the cvs and everything seems to work fine, thanks again :) hmm hum Shalom what's up, y'all? Pondering system design ah how does one ponder online, anyway? ponder ponder ponder ... I see 03:10pm I do Pondering how to handle timing interrupts hi fare Fare, who the hell is your boss anyway? JBS who? jbs abi: jbs? jbs is Jean-Bernard "marvelous" Stefani of FT/CNET/DTL/ASR * Fare/#Tunes gotta login another machine brb I see... and what has he to do with TUNES? nothing! we all end up as computer janitors :| Man * Downix/#tunes is curious how tunes will handle portability for itself ah, I now understand the Tao 03:20pm Ther has to be some kind of hardware layer, doesn't there? yepp only God can enter the scene with one simple word * Tril/#TUNES is away: (Not here now.) [BX-MsgLog Off] tmf: That's only true for the judeo-christian world I'm afraid, and since the number of non-judeo-christians outnumbers those that are... by 5 to 1 I'd note anyone read any Zen? in my younger days I have those guys say some insightful things about interconnecting things yup yes, but remember the infinite monkeys reenlighten me! ( just tell me about the f**king mokeys, ok !) * tmf/#tunes thinks oops - unnessasary swearing * Fare/#Tunes is back and zen people say things about scalability as well. Downix: "portability for itself"? 03:30pm y'know... infinite monkeys... typewriters... Shakespeare Dell will be making embedded i386 devices. hmm right! but I never bought that - I had an hamster :) Fare: uh, why? or are they integrating linux in their standard system installation software? brb maybe the latter I just hope you got the point anyway, they're hiring the new linux asm howto maintainer! Kaufmann: given infinite time, only one monkey will do! Kaufmann: even better, just a generator of pi decimals will do. fare: which means there is hope for politicians as well.. Fare: monkeys die... given only one immortal monkey.... eihrul: take a couple of monkeys, for reproduction they'll eventually kill themselves off... we're doing a fine-good job of that ourselves, as monkeys eihrul: as they evolve to get more like us? sure eihrul, actually, I think it's likely that we'll invent practical assembler technology and become cybergods before we manage to kill each other off... then again, it's not good enough a bet that I'm betting everything either that, or the monkey swill eventually mess up the type writers that's an interesting idea... given enough time, a population of monkeys banging on typewriters will evolve to become human, invent H-bombs and cause a nuclear holocaust, without ever banging the entire works of Shakespeare after all... kauf: but all's well that ends well but in time, the surviving cockroaches will evolve and start to bang on the typewriters themselves... i vote for the pi decimal generator.... just try to spot the TUNES sources within the decimals... LOL given an infinite amount of monkey, time, or pi decimals.... they'll eventually produce tunes so true... This is the kind of thing that makes me long for the day when I will have my own neutron-star computer for ultra-complex simulations looks like the monkeys are doing it faster than us too... 03:40pm hehe yup -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) * Downix/#tunes is breaking out a ton of books now Downix: fire fodder? no, studying timing systems timing systems? Hey, did you guys see the article (on Slashdot) about the scientists trying to create life on a lab? HELL YEAH! Fare: The CPU API system and how it allows the OS to interrupt applications to run didn't look to interesting yup just found out which genes didn't kill the organism... and said they didn't even know what many of them were for well, that's the right direction nonetheless still a long way from creating Your Custom Organism.... -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Read error to Kaufmann[dial167.infolink.com.br]: Connection reset by peer) 03:50pm I want a redhead with legs up to here. 8) but she's still on the drawingboard, right :) * Fare/#Tunes wonders how much interrupts cost in terms of performance modelling atomicity of operations in a multi-level description of programs is quite a hard task. yepp, you quickly end up with vm-like stuff and there's a performance issue tmf: long time no see, btw. Wassup? I got myself a job! doing what? I'm designing/implementing an internet shop concept using php3 and mysql cool * Downix/#tunes nods, good idea, been done, but good idea make it one-click buying and people will love you they HATE shopping carts umm... one-click shopping is patented have to be careful there They patented one method of it and it is a non-enforceable patent in the end -:- MetaF [Mke@spc-isp-ktc-uas-07-76.sprint.ca] has joined #tunes it's like "I patent Catelog sales!" 04:00pm it's sort of generic - companies can put products in our big product database, and we provide space for their shop or "Mail Order is my patent!" tmf: MMmm, nice idea breathing(c) thinking(tm) -:- SignOff MetaF: #TUNES (ircII 2.8.2-EPIC4pre1.001 -- Starting all over again.) get it? Or "Shopping carts" :D I patent: Patent I reserve the right to break laws and do and say what I like. see, patents are obsolete in the end and nearly impossible to encorce * eihrul/#tunes patents... the electron and chemical reactions involving them * Downix/#tunes patents the electron * eihrul/#tunes patents hadrons and leptons * tmf/#tunes patents time hehe * Downix/#tunes patents the time/space continuum * eihrul/#tunes patents relativity * Fare/#Tunes patents patents * eihrul/#tunes patents the act of making a patent * tmf/#tunes patents pants ok.. it stopped being funny five minutes ago.. * Downix/#tunes patents jokes being run into the ground * Fare/#Tunes patents not being funny they stopped being funny a century ago... anyways talk about stupid patents * tmf/#tunes sues eihrul and Fufie for misusing my time patent * eihrul/#tunes countersues for using electrons to write the message * tmf/#tunes patents meaning :) it's all pointless, you guys!