IRC log started Sat Nov 27 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1127 -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn180.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial524.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Shalom -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial524.infolink.com.br]) 04:20am -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-1.ici.net] has joined #tunes hello all 04:40am -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [05:05am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn25.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn180.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-75p3 for Windows CE today!) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn180.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn180.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp159.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lc66k.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-89.s89.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes * zarq/#tunes is back from being away: trug * Fufie/#tunes yawns * eihrul/#tunes yawns too * AlonzoTG/#tunes mediates -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-136-50.s50.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Read error to yoo[user-38lc66k.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kbao2.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #TUnes -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Ping timeout for yoo[user-37kbao2.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us711.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: www.tunes.org || http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/dnquery.xp?ST=PS&defaultOp=AND&LNG=english&showsort=date&DBS=1&svcclass=dnserver&format=terse&QRY=&groups=comp.compilers&authors=&subjects=Introspection%2FReflection umm.... url is a bit long? -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ Tril: hoy hcf: hi 12:20pm hi hcf: actually a lot of people have heard about and have read the tunes pages.. at a lecture I held a week ago, several people knew what tunes was and was interested in elaborations on reflection but all of them commented on the mix of politics into the definitions.. (the lexture was about aop, not tunes) lecture what politics? -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (dying by hcf's request) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes 12:30pm political views, e.g in the glossary tril get off irc you're political views != politics -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) 12:40pm * smoke/#tunes is interested in what people think about OOP and AOP in general Where is the best place to learn about AOP? bineng: xerox's parc? k abi: aop? aop is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/spl/projects/aop/ or aspect-oriented programming or just a special case of re-write logic abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 3 days, 13 hours, 30 minutes and 53 seconds ago, saying: air: or another, but i don't remember installing the vga font on any XFree 3.3.5 boxes [Tue Nov 23 23:23:33 1999] abi: no aop is at http://www.parc.xerox.com/csl/projects/aop/ or aspect-oriented programming or just a special case of re-write logic okay, smoke. 01:00pm isn't that abi-system open to hackers? i just say `abi: no foo is bar' and all information is lost smoke: how so? s/hackers/bad folk/ how is that being a hacker? dont be bad grin :) i won't, but some people just are plain evil we run a definition-bot for which you need an appropriate access level in order to remove data abi's DBs get backed up -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [01:07pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] abi has somewhat-"access level"-like controls available, tril chose not to have them enabled, prefering openness -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp159.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 01:10pm -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [01:10pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn25.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn180.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes does ocaml have the #infix directive defined? i don't think so -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.111] has joined #tunes read the ocaml manual section about infix and prefix operators i couldn't find it lexical conventions .. basically, your operators have to be made of operator chars aha thanks. -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-167.s167.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes `The functional approach to programming' mentions the #infix directive in the first chapter, so I got scared smkl: feel like adding an ocaml factoid to abi? 01:20pm hcf; is `abi' an abbreviaton of something, by the way? application binary interface no, the abbreviation of something is som smoke: its short for abigail that perl developer ? mibin: kinda ;) a She was "a woman of good understanding, and of a beautiful countenance." hum 01:30pm abi: ocaml? smkl: bugger all, i dunno abi: ocaml is a language from ML family with support for objects and modules at http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/ abi: perl? no idea, mibin :PP heh -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-49-167.s167.tnt7.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] 01:40pm mibin: it's The Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister :) heh =) abi: perl is Practical Extraction and Report Language (or Pathologically Eclectic Rubbish Lister). http://www.perl.org/, http://www.perl.com/ 01:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) i have even written an http server in perl some days ago for fun 02:00pm it has mime-support,some preliminary cgi support and is only 3313 bytes it took me only a day to 'reverse engineer' the http protocol and write the server ok perl is not as elegant as lisp but is funny to use sometimes reverse engineer? :) i thought there were rfc's for it :) smoke i was offline when i wrote it =) i straced lynx and telneted to port 80 to understand the protocol =) well, actually the only line my server takes int account is the GET one =) heh :) hm. ocaml doesn't even have the `where' keyword? it's really very different from caml light :( abi, ocaml? ocaml is probably a language from ML family with support for objects and modules at http://caml.inria.fr/ocaml/ 02:20pm you can change the syntax with camlp4 does ocaml support prefix/lisp-syntax? smkl; what is camlp4? fufie; there's much less parentheses in ocaml :) smkl; i'm working through this book which uses examples for caml light -- would i be better off getting another book, getting caml light, or just try to adapt to both? I guess.. but the simple lisp-syntax has many advantages over other forms of organising code smoke: well, it should be easy enough to adapt your code to ocaml caml.inria.fr/camlp4 has camlp4 .. it is a parser for ocaml gakuk hi Fare :) revised syntax that comes with camlp4 has where, but it's otherwise different 02:30pm smkl; the `where' clause is completely ommited in ocaml? smoke: a where b = c ==> let b = c in a smkl; aha! i suppose that's for making code easier to read? smoke: yes okay. another thing, is the indentation in emacs ocaml-mode known to be broken ? :) no idea. i use jed w/o indention hm, okay. thanks smoke: there are at least two caml modes, and there are lots of active emacs versions (GNU Emacs vs XEmacs; versions 19, 20, 21) fare; i've been using the ocaml supplied one there's another one (touareg) available somewhere aha. i'll hunt it down 02:40pm tuareg? hum. http://fr.tunes.org doesn't seem to respond oh dear i need to pick up some french lessons fare: works from here smoke: not sure about the spelling. The french word spells "touareg", but the package may be named otherwise Fufie: you can see fr.tunes.org? I got up a page at least it works nicely yes hum. Wierd; from my home, it doesn't work, but from school, I can see it probably "tuareg" or rather, www.fr is seen, while fr.tunes.org isn't! is the dns lookup right then? I think so ouch; something's wrong in the DNS indeed; fr.tunes.org gives the wrong (old) adress! oh and yes, if you get an odd request for subscribe to tunes-preapproval or sth, it was just me being lazy and subscribing to all tunes* lists while I was at it looks like a DNS caching problem; the old entry hasn't expired yet from a lot of servers when did you change it? yesterday oh.. at least give it a week patience is the most important thing when dealing with dns 02:50pm ah tuareg-mode indents much better than the supplied mode! thanks, fare smoke: you're welcome so you're using ocaml, after all :) fare; i'm still looking at guile and haskell too ;) fare; i like ocaml and haskell somewhat more than scheme at this moment, but i think it's too soon to abandon it smoke: gile is evil er guile.... its relegated to an extension language, written in C no less there are lots of things I don't like about guile indeed a promising scheme system is the PLT thing at Rice lots of nice people there MzScheme yup Scheme of Choice seen water abi, seen water? water was last seen on IRC 26 days, 3 hours, 38 minutes and 9 seconds ago, saying: good point [Mon Nov 1 11:19:50 1999] they have a scheme web server running on bare hardware... How come water has been away for so long? navy stuff Bigloo is also a Scheme to consider for more practical purposes.. but neither Bigloo or MzScheme can match a real lisp-system * Fare/#Tunes chants Village People's "In the Navy" aha, like ships and so, then? ;) * Fare/#Tunes 's sister seem to love this group. 03:00pm * Fare/#Tunes 's sister seems to match any definition of "average" -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kbati.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes el tymah! Far-ee! "coding up a storm of libraries for every three- and four-letter protocol in town" Wha about 5-letter protocols? CORBA, XDMCP, ULTOS =) ditch them TCP/IP is nice ;) yes, but TCP is three-letter (ok, we need the two-letter IP) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn25.delft.casema.net]) 03:20pm ditching CORBA and keeping abominations like OLE, COM, DCOM, MFC, etc isn't nice either :) -:- zarq [zarq@9dyn242.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial884.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes 03:30pm -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial884.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann` [Kaufmann@dial149.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes AAAAH! -:- Kaufmann` is now known as Kaufmann So what's up? Beta out? 03:40pm Mjolner BETA has been out for quite a while -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Read error to yoo[user-37kbati.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) ha-ha 03:50pm afk -:- yoo [ultima@user-38lc6b6.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes 04:10pm -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes lo hey is the topic worth pasting to a browser? I guess it's a rather short thread about the quality of the text in tunes.org air: just a few comments on tunes and how its definitions of reflection are too muddled with politics Basically, "where can I find information on reflection?" "Go to tunes.org." "tunes.org sucks." "No it doesn't." not worth the title space it takes up... heh did fare post the second and fourth? air, amazingly, no 04:30pm this works too: http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/dnquery.xp?ST=PS&defaultOp=AND&LNG=english&showsort=date&DBS=1&svcclass=dnserver&format=terse&QRY=&groups=comp.compilers&authors=&subjects=Introspection%2FReflection ehm. sorry for the flood. i meant http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?ST=PS&groups=comp.compilers&authors=&subjects=Introspection%2FReflection long live obfuscated url change the topic -:- smoke has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: www.tunes.org | http://www.deja.com/dnquery.xp?ST=PS&groups=comp.compilers&authors=&subjects=Introspection%2FReflection i wonder what the ST=PS is for 04:40pm what happens when u remove it? Yeah, let's reverse-engineer deja.com's NNTP gateway software :) air; it needs the ST=PS (STyle=PoSt?) smoke: try every combination of letters and numbers for the PS and see if any work :) &authors= isn't needed either -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us805.javanet.com] has joined #tunes http://www.qzx.com/doggie.txt 04:50pm -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) where is that from? someone emailed it to me 05:00pm -:- Beholder [root@ppp-173.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes Hey Beh Hey Kauf, how've you been? OK, I guess lots of new ideas Such as? There's the reflective ultra-modular Perl/Tk-based comms client (or, as eihrul has called it, "perlmacs") There's MIND (MIND Is Not Delphi), the Perl IDE There's my ongoing Living Music project to combine genetic algorithms and computer-generated music. There's my NODE project for AI-based multimedia databases, topologically indexed through statistical analysis Hmm, sounds like interesting things to think about. I guess How far has each of these projects progressed? First one (tentative name Phil - as in Collins) is in early devel. Need to learn Perl/Tk better. MIND has just recently crossed my mind (pun intended); I'm still trying to come up with an architecturally sound design. 05:20pm Living Music is seriously hampered by my almost complete lack of familiarity with electronic music. Hmm, that would slow things down wouldn't it ;) Wouldn't Perl/Tk be a little... slow for most purposes? I'm genuinely curious, as I've not used any Perl/Tk programs yet NODE is rather ambitious, and deserves a deep study of connectionist AI techniques before anything concrete can be done. Unfortunately, good AI research is rather hard to find in Brazil, which is why I intend to move to Cambridge as soon as possible (probably by mid-2K1) What ideas do you have for NODE? It seems that most of the AI research focuses on ontology theory, will it be similar? Kaufmann: have you seen Common Music? Beholder, not really... it's relatively fast, since most of Perl's "system" code is directly compiled to fast C code, and most of Tk's "system" code is directly compiled to xlib calls Fare, not really seems like a platform of choice for musical experimentation Hey Fare, how have you been? not not? Beh, not really... the idea is basically to use "AI" techniques to find relations between different pieces of data in a seemingly intelligent manner, and use this data to manage the data in the database in a manner which is more useful to its users (redundancy in that last sentence?) why is it that everything I say begins with 'not really...'? Fare, URL? Review/Languages.html#CL -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.102.111] has left #tunes [] Isn't CL Common Lisp? yup, and CM is a CL app Aaaaaaah 05:30pm I don't see any mention to CM anywhere in there, tho Kaufmann: http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/cm/cm.html, http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/clm/clm.html, http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/cmn/cmn.html grazzi hcf 404 for the 3 URLs http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/Software.html wait, they're there, how r they 404s? abi: CM is Common Music, whici does Music in Common LISP, by the CCRMA at http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/cm/cm.html abi: cm =~ s/whici/which/ OK, hcf Beholder: people are what they do. I do nothing, therefore I am not. Fare: Ahh, yes that makes sense. I'm glad you do nothing, it's so much more pure, and you're actions are always perfect as are your ideas... I imagine it's difficult remaining in a state of absolute perfection ;) -:- mellemus [mellemus@194.182.210.8] has joined #tunes -:- mellemus [mellemus@194.182.210.8] has left #tunes [] 05:40pm -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial149.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial472.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-102.s102.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes Big Al! LTNS! * AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Kaufmann * Kaufmann/#tunes ducks quickly bye * eihrul/#tunes hurls a laser-guided flaming woodchuck at Kaufmann from behind! -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Doc, note! I dissent! A fast never prevents a fatness - I diet on COD!) 06:30pm -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (good night <k!14>) -:- yoo [ultima@user-37kbas3.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Beholder [root@ppp-173.m2-3.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] 469 Oops A terrible accident has befallen this machine. Havn't you noticed that the computers in the old movies (1975-1985) are soo much smarter than anything we have today? havent u noticed that our current technology is lightyears ahead of the buttons and switches used in the old star trek and they are suppose to be 300 years from now you didn't see them crash did you? 07:10pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff yoo: #TUNES (Read error to yoo[user-37kbas3.dialup.mindspring.com]: Connection reset by peer) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1128 IRC log ended Sun Nov 28 00:00:01 1999