IRC log started Fri Nov 5 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1105 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us221.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1043.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial484.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Shalom! -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial484.infolink.com.br]) 09:40am -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[e161.ryd.student.liu.se]) -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- nagendre1 [user5501@209.58.15.242] has joined #tunes -:- nagendre1 [user5501@209.58.15.242] has left #tunes [] -:- vettsmail [user2393@216.88.79.27] has joined #tunes -:- vettsmail [user2393@216.88.79.27] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Ping timeout for binEng[e161.ryd.student.liu.se]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us207.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp20.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hoy eihrul yoh abi: seen core core was last seen on IRC 10 days, 4 hours, 14 minutes and 39 seconds ago, saying: hm, well, i'll be back :) you have a good day :) [Tue Oct 26 10:10:49 1999] 01:30pm * hcf/#tunes twiddles #tunes has been reduced to a channel for twiddling, eh? yep 01:50pm -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes hum Fare: done anything lately? rewrote part of the mplds paper for a magazine been hushed by my boss getting in contact with a team of compiler writers to develop a tunesy compiler (the team is now part of the lab where I work) the idea of the compiler architecture is that it be traceable. (which in a reflective system would be a side-effect of computations being traceable in general) 02:10pm this allows for: 1) validation of the compiler chain 2) reversibility of compiler transformations (i.e. for reifying state, and managing coherency of transformations between compiled&source code) 1) allows for various validators depending on trust and rights 2) allows for a wide range of automatic coherency management (including implicit Make) 02:20pm Losedoze is the current software monopoly, done by people who have it tiny and not firm abi: intellectual property is at http://intellectual.property.really.fuckingsucks.net/ 02:30pm -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250120.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes pyro: icuc, http://homestead.dejanews.com/user.lars_krueger/ a color forth metacompiler written in perl?? hehe maybe I could learn some perl tricks from it 02:40pm -:- fufie [stig@tunnel-44-24.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes hi -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by adams.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is devlin.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from devlin.openprojects.net) -:- devlin.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(48)] 8% -:- [global users on irc(272)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(323)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(13)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(595)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(31)] (avg. 19 users per server) -:- [total channels created(151)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !devlin.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 61 (57 clients) !devlin.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 6 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System || brain -:- topic set by hcf [Thu Nov 4 22:46:30 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ fufie ] [ pyro ] [ Fare ] [ eihrul ] [ hcf ] [ smkl ] [ Zhivago ] [@Tril ] [ abi ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 9.264 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES welcome 02:50pm -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial753.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Shalom! I dropped by the tunes web-site and got somewhat curious to what the project is all about. There has obviously been people thinking but I am not sure I grasp the ideas correctly what's your q.? question I am not sure yet. I have just started reading :) heh It's okay, nobody really understands it either I'm not sure anyone really understands all this stuff :) pheew ;) Even Brian (water, not here now), who is constantly bitching because other people don't understand his sophisticated mathematical ideas about the Arrow project, is himself just pretending :) if he understood he wouldn't need help I have not read the complete paper, but it seems as if many papers are a strange mix of (quasi-)philosophical thoughts and technical material.. but if he understood, he could get help pyre, yeah :) s/e/o there sorry :( fufie, that's called computer science :) abi, computer science? kaufmann: no idea kauf: my papers are somewhat heavier on the technical side.. ;) computer science = that + hackery fufie: for an url? abi, computer science is a strange mix of (quasi-)philosophical thoughts and technical material... with a bit of hackery (sic) on the side s/for/got/ # cant spell hcf: sortof, but they're in norwegian and most aren't published widely how do you spell "hackery" if not that? :) eihrul, I don't even think you /spell/ hackery it's another word altogether hcf: I'll put them on a page one day but, * eihrul/#tunes looks up dictionary.com eihrul, good luck :) is any code written which I might test and have a look at? ;) ("show me the code" ;) "A cart with wooden wheels, drawn by bullocks." see, i told you! eihrul, yes, that's whay you meant originally ;) what's a bullock? s/whay/what fufie: tril's got some code and spec for his thing somewhere under www.tunes.org/~dem/ Nevermind the bullocks, here's the Sex Pistols! search for "hackery" on google.com brings up hits :) so atleast its a buzz word 03:00pm stupid abi! hcf: the game cracks and dos-utilities? Gakuk! fufie, try also http://www.tunes.org/~water/Abstract-Arrows.st , which is water's Arrow code fufie: I'm writing a Forth OS fufie: hmm, tril seemingly offline'd his stuff pyro: how nice :) tril did what Tril: wheres ur spec and code? oh, i suppose i did if you have a bespin account, go in ~dem/oldhtml/tunes otherwise i guess you must ask me that's because I updated my web page Tril: fufie hasnt got an account he's the one asking for code I am just curious :) ok you can get to it now http://tunes.org/~dem/old/ then click on snapshot I am impressed by the organisation and many papers and projects and subprojects and subprojects, etc :) make that subsubprojects :) fufie: dont look too close, u'l see thru the illusion hcf: don't tell'im the trick! tril: cl code.. that's nice :) * Fare/#Tunes is really a microsoft employee trying to waste the time of as much talentuous free software hackers as possible noone's fallen for it.... unfortunately 03:10pm fare: a genuine microserf? :) * Fare/#Tunes is no more genuine LOL Fare you should know I'm not working on that cl code anymore -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBBIAS -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes * fufie/#tunes nods (as if he understood) -:- KaufmannBBIAS is now known as Kaufmann -:- fufie is now known as Fufie 03:20pm Tonight is classical night at the Kaufmann household! How so? oh and yes.. We started off with the Rach 3, then John Williams Guitar Transcriptions, and finally Beethoven's 7th the one million dollar question: what does TUNES mean? :) rtfm? i heard rtfm was Read The Fucking Manual found it yes sorry TUNES = Tunes is a Useful, Nonetheless Expedient System abi: tunes? well, tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated wherein Tunes = Tunes is a Useful, Nonetheless Expedient System abi: rtfm is Read the (Fine|Fucking) Manual ...but rtfm is Read The Fucking Manual... eihrul: prefix 'no, ' abi: no, rtfm is Read the (Fine|Fucking) Manual rtfm? okay, eihrul. rtfm is Fucking) Manual damn it.... abi didn't like that sign, i'l fix it abi: no, rtfm is Read the [Fine|Fucking] Manual okay, eihrul. rtfm? i think rtfm is Read the [Fine eihrul: stop dern... i give up :) (never should've asked :) ahh.. "We do hate Windows and similar misdesigned bad quality low-level proprietary software.".. I had better sign up :) abi: no, rtfm is Read The Fucking Manual okay, eihrul. -:- Kaufmann` [Kaufmann@dial493.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes argh... back -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial753.infolink.com.br]) So, as I was saying... 03:30pm Kaufman: nice choice of Music I suppose it was it Rach's 3rd *piano concerto* (as for symphonies, I prefer his 1st or 2nd) yep -:- NetSplit: norton.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [03:32pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [norton.openprojects.net] I was able to see the Rach 2 and 3 live earlier this year, at Rio's Municipal Theatre It was one of those unforgettable musical experiences who was playing? Arnaldo Cohen and the Brazilian Symphony Orchestra (OSB) !netgod:*! well, microsoft is a monopoly -- big surprise there !irq:*! yeah, really 03:40pm Right now I'm listening to Beethoven's 7th, 3rd movt -:- Tril [dem@206.63.100.13] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ 2nd mvt is very famous yeah MAN, it's raining outside is that unusual? the entire day today was just horribly warm, like a greenhouse (d'oh :])... at least in your regular summer's day, there are nice cool breezes... but today all the air was just hot, like a divine exhalation How is the weather where you live? -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) I envy people who live in temperate climates 7th est finit I think I'll go with Moussorgsky next -:- Netjoined: norton.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ 03:50pm wb Tril anyone volunteer to do some web page editing? Care to explain the job without expecting me to volunteer at the same time? Care to explain the job without expecting me to volunteer at the same time? -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has left #tunes [] -:- binEng [bineng@e161.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes * hcf/#tunes watches as most everyone jumps up, hands waving, screaming "oh me me me" hmm hmm Did you see what I said? Things were screwed up for me you said it twice and i see it ok, 'cause I didn't see it myself the answer is, reading requests for people who want added to the members list and then copy/paste the html and check it into cvs oh good god if you like web page editing though, there's other things you can do K: whats your problem nothing are you upset at me for being too lazy to update the members list? because that's probably justified oh well.. time for sleep... had to hold a lecture at 10 this morning.. -:- SignOff Fufie: #TUNES (have a good night :) oh.. Fufie was one of the people who wanted added :) heh cast he the first stone, he who hath ne'er sinned 04:00pm So I'm starting up the design phase of my Internet Object Protocol It's no Arrow, but at least it's useful and conceptually nice Kauf: have you read dah28's PhD thesis? dave halls Kaufmann`: Got any info on it? oh by the way, what ever happened with the glossary project? Fare, no i just added the 4 new members from the backlog bin, nothing on paper that makes any sense Kaufmann`: Could you maybe explain the conceptual points? Kauf: anyone designing a communication protocol should. I mean, application-level communication protocol also read Shivers' "LAMBDA, the Ultimate Little Languages" pyro: isn't it still here? under papers/ Fare: where can that be found? bin, well, basically, IOP is my attempt to get rid of both CORBA and HTML/HTTP in a single stroke. 04:10pm binEng: http://www.ai.mit.edu/~shivers/citations.html#ll k Fare: I might put it into a database.. I've gotten some experience in that stuff now, and I need to make some sort of demo.. so I figured, the Tunes glossary it is it's a very simple and straightforward application-level protocol to support a remote object model; on top of this model I intend to build an object library that will - and this is the catch - include a series of view-independent visual programming-like classes that, combined with a XML-based language, will allow you to build mini-applications that combine the best of CORBA or DCOM and HTML/HTTP, with none of the worst hm hm.. and you'll convince everyone to use this? more buzzwords, less cruft :) eihrul, LOL bin, nah... everybody's too hooked on C/C++ But I'll put it out there nonetheless and eventually people will use it actually, i think visual basic has a larger following for mini-apps and maybe a larger following in general C/++ don't deal with protocol stuff afaik.. you can implement poor abstractions so that it can though bin, I'm talking about the C/C++ _paradigm_, which is "add overhead, reduce functionality, reduce expandability, reduce flexibility" 04:20pm c++ adds overhead? You make it sound bad in some way.. ;) of course, you can write a C++ IOP API just like you can write, say, a Perl IOP API it may reduce all the latter three but it does not add overhead.... eihrul, it adds /conceptual/ overhead ok, that's better but C++'s class model is brain-damaged, so it won't be able to support things such as dynamic classing, some features having to do with method slots, etc. 04:30pm -:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann`[dial493.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial637.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes But the eventual goal of the project's first phase is that, in any language, any application programmer can write something of the sort: (beware - miniflood coming) Warning... those of you who aren't interested, do /ignore me now As I was saying, the eventual goal of the project's first phase is that, in any language, any application programmer can write something of the sort: #/usr/bin/perl -w use IOP; $ns = new NamingService 'localnamingservice.com', 'guest', 'foo@bar.com'; $ip = lookup $ns 'James Marshall Hendrix'; $rs = new RemoteServer $ip, 'guest', 'foo@bar.com'; $jh = interface $rs; while ($jh->{'songs'}->{'Hey Joe'}->download) { print; } exit; >>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial637.infolink.com.br] requested PING 941848558 from #tunes Anders, still there? I'm here. That codeblock didn't make much sense to me familiar with Perl? what about Lisp? I unfortunately don't know Perl. Not much Lisp either, yet. okie. Python? that's fine 04:40pm wait a bit np, as long as I can stay awake 04:50pm how does Python support hashes? The built-in function hash() hrrm You people call them 'dictionaries', I see um, ok then OK, see if this suits you better (beware - miniflood again) # import the IOP classes import IOP # create a new NamingService object; arguments are a URL, an username and a password ns = NamingService('localnamingservice.com', 'guest', 'foo@bar.com') # search for the words "James Marshall Hendrix" in the NamingService's database; # return an IP address ip = ns.lookup('James Marshall Hendrix') # create a new RemoteServer object; arguments are the IP, an username and a password rs = RemoteServer(ip, 'guest', 'foo@bar.com') # jh will be the interface through which remote slots in rs can be accessed; # since remote servers are tree-shaped objects, jh will also be a tree jh = rs.interface # this quickly the object - a file - called 'Hey Joe' in the object - # a directory - called 'songs' in the jh object, and downloads it as a stream for line in jh['songs']['Hey Joe'].download # display each iteration line There wait there should be a \t before the last line, 'line' ic.. and the goal was that any app programmer would be able to express that in any language? yep -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes 05:00pm seems more like a language/library issue than a protocol issue to me of course, even higher-level module would be available, like, for instance, a "Yahoo! Search" module, so that, just like anyone can add to their site a form to "Search Yahoo! here", anyone can add to their mini-app a form to do the same, but much more neatly just adding one or two lines and not having to worry about naming services or the like ok of course, it's also a language/library issue but there is also the need for a specialized protocol; thus IO_P_ sorry, but I'm Just Too Tired now. C'ya. bye bye -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:10pm hey brand -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us207.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial637.infolink.com.br]) hey tom 05:30pm -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) great news on /. still reading it... 05:40pm -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.128.95.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey 07:00pm can you be more detailed about the kind of DB and the structure of it, and what things will be able to add/modify/remove? the main goal of review is to have categories which are basically flexible and can overlap. lar1? lar1 is, like, mailto:lar1@bigfoot.com or mailto:lar1@tunes.org Isn't the main goal of the review project to document other OSes? 07:20pm err, I meant what people need in a new DB style review what people want is to have links between the projects that are very dynamic Oh! Like categroies like architecture, type,. goals, etc well, I meant categories like language family, language features availble some really powerful searching and querying could be implemented but basically what it needs is organization that isn't just layout on a page Are we looking to document OSes or languages or both? I am still not clear on this right now they're on separate pages, no? I belive so That is why I thought it was OS only you mean you didn't see the language page originally? I have seen it once I think... i think there's 3 main pages I think. OSes, Languages, and VMs. OS and Language are both quite large. Hmm, I have certenly never seen the VMs so what kind of database are you thinking of? postgreSQL good, that's what we have installed. Is that why you picked it? :) Yes I figured since I don't know SQL, I mine as well learn the one on besin do you know SQL now? I belive I know enough to put a DB together But I will need my refrence nearby :) how will the Web user get to the db? PHP3? python? or like ultima did, and have scripts generate HTML from the db on regular intervals ? I was going to use perl ok Because I am familiar with it and there is a lib for SQL interface 07:30pm Although I would prefer php3 if there is an easy way to interface it with the DB not any harder than perl after I install the module that is :) * lar1/#tunes debates I think I want to go with php3 then 'cause I like it see /usr/doc/php3-doc/html/ref.pgsql.html on bespin, then. Okay, thanks Do you have any thoughts/ideas/sugesttions on how the DB should be structured? well, I have my preferences, did you look at my tables for it? I designed a db for review and nobody looked at it :( No, I didn't know any thing had been made :) I got stalled because zope was a lot of work to set up to mess with it zope? it has been said that zope is at http://www.zope.org zope is a "web objects" system, it's in python. I have it running on http://zope.tunes.org (not sure what you can see here right now) The idae was to have zope forms to access the database, but it got awkward for me. 07:40pm What is zopes claim to fame? Of course you may like that better than PHP3. It has its own document format which can have embedded DB access Hmm That means I would have to learn Zope... I'd rather do then prepare to do access control on individual pages/folders, a unique object system of inheritance for properties... the paths passed to it are used to walk through the Zope object hierarchy such as /path/to/my/file/Zope_Object and then the object is at the end learning zope is a large project... Ok, I am sticking with php3 I don't have time for a large learning project right. and then it would be even harder for someone else to help you, or take over when you were done... See, this is the reason why Zope's venture capital firm recommended going open source. They were well aware that zope was too complex, so the company that makes it can make a bundle from simply consulting Zope solutions for people Ouch... thats quite a nasty business practice zope's not a bad package, in fact if I knew python I could probably extend it for our needs rather easily It looks cool, yes do you want me to install PHP3-PGSQL module today? If you have time if I do, will you use it today? thats just what I was about to comment on :) Most likely not, unless I start now and don't stop typing until 2 AM... there is a lot of gruntwork data entry to be done So when ever is good for you is probly when I would like it installed -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port155.snet.net] has joined #tunes Hello rares hmm? are you entering data into postgres through psql? Why wouldn't it be easier to use the same forms to enter the DB initially, as will be used to incrementally update it? hey I had planned to use psql... I didn't know there was an alternitive 07:50pm uh... -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us826.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Are you making a PHP3 interface to view and edit the review project? *SMACK* Uhh.. Hello lar1! There was another one of my lar1.brain.failCounter++ moments :) you would use psql to set up the intial tables.. won't there be HTML forms for tunes members to add to review? Granted, it's not absolutely necessary, but it might be nice eventually. That is, if you're making the Read-Only interface first. Yes, I should make a skeliton DB first and then script up my php3... How should I authinticate tunes membership? I think the work would not be data-entry... it would be finding what the data was in the first place. What fields are in the DB? I thought I told you how to look at my db skeleton.. Nope, I never got the name of your DB it's called 'tunes'... Ahh, I keep forgeting how to list the tables... its \t somthing... or \somthing t... \dt thanks :) can you access the 'tunes' db? Yes, but I don't have access to the tables members: premission denied They are all owned by zope figuring out how to add you to read it... Ok 08:00pm try again? it didnt say anything, but it didnt give an error either.. tunes-> GRANT SELECT ON tunes to lar1 back later guys -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port155.snet.net] has left #tunes [] lar1 whered you go I have to leave soon My connection just dropped, and upon reconnecting I get a pretty slow connection hmm i just became lar1 and it wont let me select.. i guess i need to type the table names one at a time. And I don't have premissons still i should create a group somehow.. so I dont have to do this again ok I'll take the expedient way out this time >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us826.javanet.com] requested PING 941861441 from TUNES Ok Sorry, I had big time lag lar1: whatcha need the most assistance w/? hcf: What do you mean? hcf: In terms of thre review project? lar1: ok you should be set up now. you have full access to all tables in the tunes db My connection becomes unstabe when my other line rings :( 08:10pm meaning you could enter data if you wanted.. I dont expect you to understand the layout.. e-mail me with your questions ok? Ok instead of having a bunch of tables with 4 or 5 columns, which you can't change later, every table has 2 columns (the ones for reviews anyway) Why? and the first colum is always the index, and is the same index in all the tables- that way you can do a join on the 'virtual table'..this allows me to add more columns later id | peopleid | review What goes in the review coloum? The review?