IRC log started Fri Oct 22 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1022
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<Zhivago> brix?
<abi> brix is probably at http://www.qzx.com/brix
06:40am
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<fire> lo
<fire> two bots and an idle
<fire> two real people :)
<Zhivago> my my :)
<fire> i need to talk to Fare :\
<fire> but you will suffice ;)
<fire> j/k
<fire> what's up?
06:50am
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<fire> zhivago: LISP is a lot like FORTH achitecture wise
<fire> you are pushing arguments onto a stack
<fire> just in a less direct way
<fire> damnit why must i always have to leave when im about to get into a discussion
<fire> i'll talk to you later
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:00am
<Fare> hum
<Zhivago> hmm, well, no
<Zhivago> fare: heh, younguns aren't they? :)
07:10am
<Fare> who?
<Zhivago> fare: fite, etc.
<Zhivago> er fire
<Fare> sure
<Zhivago> hmm, how is retro going?
07:40am
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<water> ping
11:30am
<water> ooh... eCollegebud.org
<water> ooh... eCollegebid.org
<water> oops :)
11:40am
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<water> hcf: what do you think of my email the other day?
<hcf> 1 moment
<water> k
12:30pm
<hcf> it should of come earlier
<water> how much so?
<hcf> and some elements should of been echo'd by others (fare, tril)
<water> oh yeah, in response to the "where is tunes headed?" thread
<water> yeah, i wish someone would chime in
<water> it'd be nice to get these issues worked out so that we could move on
<hcf> the leadership made sure they got worked out long ago
<hcf> s/made/should of made/
<water> explain
<water> oh
<water> yes
<water> well, the question is how to fix this
<water> do you think there;s a "point of diminishing returns" nearby for my near-authoritarian stance?
<hcf> huh?
<water> hm
<water> if i were much more arrogant (or as arrogant as i am :), would it harm the situation?
<hcf> the situation needs ur stance
<water> thanks
<hcf> it really needs an official stance
<water> yes, "official" is something missing
<hcf> also
<hcf> iv been hinting at a #osdev sort of thing for months
<water> hmm
<water> with an mlist?
<hcf> w/ all of it
<water> ah
<hcf> site too
<water> yes i see
12:40pm
<hcf> ppl come in as os-dev'ers and pollute cuz tunes is the closest thing they can get to what the need
<hcf> s/cuz tunes/tunes cuz/
<water> well, we have the very-much-part-time of a little over 100 mlisters as human resources
<water> if we re-worked the site to reflect a focussed official policy and supported it, that could change
<hcf> the number of which that really care about tunes for tunes' sake is a lot less
<water> damn. you reminded me :)
<hcf> the other part of the 100 r osdev'ers and misc
<water> you know, i think i know almost all of them fairly well now
<water> btw, what do you think of Laurent Martelli's OIP thing?
<hcf> silly
<water> yeah, the AOP goal is just graph-rewrite
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<water> damn, i'd go commercial in a second if i could find some good people
<hcf> at least tunes has shown u the ppl u dont want ;)
<water> hcf: did you notice that DMOZ has a Tunes <directory> under OSes and OS-Lang hybrids?
<hcf> i noticed that long ago
<hcf> afaik, tril knew, i thot others did to
<hcf> s/to/too/
<water> hm
<hcf> of course, if the site and/or mlist gave any web-presence status reports, everyone would know
<water> we're grouped with BRiX
<water> it makes me feel really self-conscious, being associated with it
<water> tunes, i mean
12:50pm
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Let's actually make a Free Reflective Computing System at <http://www.tunes.org/>
<water> hmm. a "remarkably civil debate on OSes and languages"
<water> i'd rather have the code and the reputation of cDc than be known as "civil" but without code
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Let's actually make a Free Reflective Computing System at <http://www.tunes.org/> || Noticed #OsDev?
<water> it's a good day to advertisse with a Topic
<water> if only i could get my linux box working right
<hcf> perhaps it should read something like: "think for a moment, thats right use ur brain, shouldnt this discussion be taking place in #osdev?"
<water> lol
<water> do it
<eihrul> the bad spelling and puctuation is a nice touch
<eihrul> +n
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Let's actually make a Free Reflective Computing System at <http://www.tunes.org/> || think for a moment, that's right use your brain, shouldn't this discussion be taking place in #OsDev?
01:00pm
<water> all right, so where does the email policy need to go to help tunes?
<water> public relations is important, like major site updates and changing the DMOZ entries or something similar
<water> the problem is that there's no damn subject matter
<hcf> either force ppl to use the other lists (the more proper ones for the topic) or
<hcf> make a tunes-core list
<water> hmm. mlist moderation via re-directing posts?
<water> damn it, tril's the guy to do all this
<hcf> is this the end of the reign of 'feel free'-ism?
<water> heh
<water> i guess that that would be Fare's reign?
<hcf> it doesnt have to be person-specific
<water> yeah
<water> i guess
<hcf> if ppl saw the error in their ways it'd be better than replacing them
<water> that could be a really big "if"
<hcf> perhaps its our error to try to fix them
* water/#tunes is looking around the web for places where people useful to tunes might be
01:10pm
<water> well, M$ and Linux/*bsd have soaked up most of the good coders
<water> but then, we don't need coders per se
<eihrul> they are not ionically bonded however
<water> uhh... sure
* eihrul/#tunes coughs... "If you build it, they will come."
<water> thanks for the insult
<eihrul> you're welcome
<water> idiot
<water> if i build it, users will come
<water> i'm not looking for users, i'm looking for creators
<eihrul> why do you throw the word idiot around so lightly?
<eihrul> anyone who is not you seems to be an idiot
<water> how old are you again?
<eihrul> 17
<water> well, don't criticize what you don't understand
<water> a.k.a. tunes
<water> i.e. tunes
<eihrul> which statement specifically criticized tunes?
<water> * eihrul coughs... "If you build it, they will come."
<eihrul> that was not a criticism towards tunes, but to the population
<water> btw, if you're not interested in #tunes, why are you here?
<eihrul> i never said i wasn't interested in tunes; you did
01:20pm
<water> then talk somewhere else
<water> hcf: hmm. where were we?
<water> <hcf> perhaps its our error to try to fix them
<water> where does that leave us?
<hcf> back where we were once (or often) b4
<hcf> what to do w/ the leadership of tunes
<water> well, the factors are bespin admin, theory development, code development, and docs development
<water> shorthand: 1,2,3,4 respectively
<water> Tril's in the position to handle 1, but is too msuy
<water> s/msuy busy
<water> Tril *can* handle 1, and 2,3,4 to a lesser extent
<water> Fare used to handle 2,4 but i believe is getting tired of working on his phd and just wants to get it over with
01:30pm
<water> Beholder volunteered for 1 and seems to roughly grok the importance of 2, but again won't or can't make time for 1
<water> everyone and their half-sister wants to work on 3, but won't work on 1 and won't do the work to figure out 4 in order to grok (forget about helping) 2
* water/#tunes admits cynicism proudly. :)
<water> and a person should be able to grok 2 and 4 before helping with 3
<water> hcf fits in with everyone else with the exception of the co-ordination of 1 and 4 via IRC public relations
<water> sorry, hcf :)
<hcf> thats fine
<water> hcf: have i left out any notable people?
<hcf> r u still working w/ the number 100?
<water> yeah, for now
<water> oh yes, i almost forgot
<water> core could help with 1,2,3,4 but is never around, so this measurement is highly problematic and quite useless until this situation changes
<hcf> what of tcn (aka pyro)
<water> hmm
<water> i forget, what's his project?
* water/#tunes checks the tunes members list
<hcf> retro
<water> eek
<water> that would be the "everyone else" category
<water> maybe there's a subset of that category which i should call the "misguided ones"
01:40pm
<water> damn it, that didn't seem to sort out my thoughts well enough
<water> blarg!!!!
<water> i could hire c programmers, but they'd just scratch their heads like apes while i tried to explain my ideas and code goals
<water> not to mention the fact that they'd botch it up
<water> hmm
<water> what about someone with an Applied Mathematics degree / leaning?
<hcf> ok
<water> "ok"?
<water> i mean, they'd still be c coders, but they'd get the theory stuff
<water> but darn it, they'd be more expensive to hire and/or more rare to find among open-sorcerers
<hcf> u wanna do tunes.com?
<water> heh
<water> dunno. i might just drop the tunes name entire;y
<hcf> ignore the fact that the domain is taken
<water> well, i *do* eventually want to have a company to build cool stuff, but it would be *based* on arrow
01:50pm
<water> it'd be fairly difficult to co-ordinate interests if i had arrow dev in the same house as the rest of the stuff
<water> hmm.
<water> btw, i've been looking around at venture-capital sites for ideas
<water> for quite some time now
<hcf> any luck?
<water> well, i don't have a good workable business plan afaik
<water> but then, i've heard many people get funded with less-thanthe-greatest plans
<water> it seems that Jecel, for instance, is in that category of entrepeneurs
<water> my problem is that i need a few people that i can trust, and it seems that i can't trust anyone, because no one wants the product
<water> well, it's very hard to convince the right people why they really want to work to make it happen
<water> i mean, i can convince losers because they know that they'll never commit any real effort to it
<hcf> i gotta go for a bit (an hr or so)
<water> well, i'm getting sick of working on the computer for now. time for a break and a little thinking
* hcf/#tunes is away: (bbl)
<water> sure
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02:00pm
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<fire> lo
03:50pm
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<fire> hey air
<fire> what's up?
04:20pm
<air> hey
<air> heh nice topic
<fire> my brain is fried :(
<fire> i had a geometry and english test and now im trying to write a hashing algorithm 
<fire> but im enjoying every minute of life :)
<air> :)
<fire> how's brix?
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<fire> coming along that is
<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<air> well
<fire> mr. brazil
<fire> welcome 
<fire> :D
<air> while i was writing this language i was doing some thinking
<Kaufmann> Thank you, Mr. USA
<air> which i shouldnt have done
04:30pm
<fire> ...
<fire> and?
<abi> somebody said and was a savings of two chracters as well
<air> well what happens to brix everytime i think...
<fire> abi: forget and
<abi> fire: I forgot and
<fire> ...
<Kaufmann> ...
<fire> you redesign it
<fire> ?
<air> :)
<Kaufmann> Do you have concretist poetry in the US?
<fire> probably
<air> what is poetry?
<fire> lol
<air> u guys know of any compiler design tutorials?>
<fire> if you consider the dragon book a tutorial
<air> not forth related
<fire> i highly suggest it
<fire> it isn't
<air> dragon book?
<Kaufmann> well, I'm taking a Lit class, and the concretist stuff I've seen looks remarkably like ASCII art
<fire> compilers: principles, techniques, and tools
<fire> good book
<fire> oh yes yes
<fire> kauf: i know what you're talking about
<fire> we discussed it in school
<air> AD&D Book of Sex, hmm
<Kaufmann> LOL air
<fire> heh
<air> is that some perverted book or what?
<Kaufmann> that's a good text
<fire> i sure wish fare would read his emails
<Kaufmann> air, it's damn kinky
<Kaufmann> I don't even /play/ AD&D, but I read it just for the heck of it
<air> haha
04:40pm
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<fire> wb
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05:00pm
<Kaufmann> ROTFL! http://www.winntmag.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=7420
<Kaufmann> How do they allow this kind of people to go outside?!?!?
<fire> lol
<fire> what an idiot
05:10pm
<air> well E 0.16 has a rather nice bug in it
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<air> netscapes menus appear at the bottom of the screen
<Wanderer> Hello all
<fire> E 0.16?
<fire> hi Wanderer
<air> enlightenment
<fire> what brings you here?
<Wanderer> I saw the channel "tunes" and I wondered if it had anything to do with Icecast
<fire> im not familier with Icecast
<fire> what is it?
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<lar1> Hey
<air> hey
<Wanderer> It's similar to Shoutcast, except it's open source
<fire> hey lar1
<air> tunes?
<abi> rumour has it tunes is http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system
<fire> well i wouldn't know what Shoutcast is either
<fire> tunes is a musical os
<fire> :D
<air> :)
<air> ya u have to play specific tones to make it do stuff
<lar1> My font server broke, I don't know how to fix it and no one in #linpeople is responding!  Anyone here good at that stuff?
<Wanderer> It's for streaming MP3s. For instance, I set a playlist on my server and play it across icecast. You set up xmms to watch the stream and I broadcast
<lar1> Heh air
<fire> well sorry but tunes is a project for a better computing system
<air> operating system
<fire> computing system
<lar1> It relates to tunes cause... uh.. I can't code until that box is running again! :)
<Wanderer> Ah
<air> fire: he obviouslt didnt get that the first couple times it was said to him
<fire> air: you told me yourself tunes isn't an os btw
<lar1> air:  No, I got it, but I just thought that it had some vauge relation to tunes and I am pretty desprate for help
<air> fire: sometimes u have to use smaller words to make people understand :)
<fire> :P
<air> lar1: not talking about u
<fire> air: don't you have a job or something?
<lar1> air: Oh, ok :)
<Kaufmann> Since when is "computing system" a big word?
<air> to us its not
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<air> to him it was overwhelming :)
<lar1> air: BTW, the newest Bochs doesn't work with BFE
<fire> when i first came to tunes i thought it was a project to build an os and write a compiler for that language
<fire> er
<fire> s/language/os
05:20pm
<fire> that's enough coding for now
<lar1> air:  Does bochs quit on you when you try to move the cursor via the VGA controller?
<fire> bye bye
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Well, I'm off. "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
<air> lar1: btw, none of the bochs made in 1999 work with bfe
05:30pm
<lar1> Hmm... grrr
<lar1> But does bochs panic and quit when you try to move the cursor?
<air> no
<lar1> Hmm, perhaps you could look at my 10 lines of cursor moving code?  It causes bochs to panic every time because of an unsupported write
05:40pm
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<air> damn, compiler books are expensive
06:00pm
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!devlin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT brin.openprojects.net 8004 from lilo
!devlin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT brin.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo
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<Tril> wli/#debian is saying some tunesy stuff:
<Tril> <wli> With enough metalinguistic abstraction, there will be no point to people
<Tril>           who are not mathematicians writing software, as the software which
<Tril>           does not require mathematical insight will be able to be generated by
<Tril>           machines.
<Tril> he was babbling about lambdas and program proofs earlier, too
<Tril> I told him to check us out
<Tril> wli (1102@panda.cs.purdue.edu) ircname  : William Lee Irwin III
10:20pm
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<water> hi td
11:40pm
<td> hey water
<water> i forget: are you on the tunes mlist?
<td> nope
<td> is it worth joining?
<water> hmm.
<water> depends on what you're interested in
<td> but its active right?
<water> what're your interests?
<water> yes
<td> well.. reflection and persistence seem cool i guess
<water> the problem is that we have too many people who aren't interested in tunes per se
<td> oh?
<td> people more interested in OS design or something?
<water> yeah, plus the fact that our meta-framework design is completely ignored by the vast majority
<td> i see
<td> you been messing w/ arrow system much lately?
<water> yeah, but i'm getting tired of working on it alone
<water> i hate being in the navy
<water> it isolates me from programmers who could help me, even in simple linux config tasks
<td> yeah
<td> i'd help, but i'm still trying to grasp most of the paper
11:50pm
<water> yeah, well, the paper sucks
<td> heh
<water> but i haven't made the time necessary to actually do the needed overhaul
<water> and it will take some time
<td> you have any models of sorts yet?
<water> nope, i'm just now getting a real arrow environment to work
<water> but then, models should be pretty simple to come by
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1023
IRC log ended Sat Oct 23 00:00:01 1999