IRC log started Sun Aug 29 00:00:01 1999 j00 r 31337 d00d see.....the part where I disagree with tril is that he seems to think I want to keep others down....when in reality what I want is to bring others up Very true ruiner what about issues of specialization? you are assuming people have an infinite amount of time to devote to everything [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0829 when that's quite far from the truth you're assuming they'll want to know everything about everything eihrul: Who is assuming? ok....I want to know everything about everything....but I don't think I'm the norm there's nothing wrong with that I wish I had the time to learn everything about everything... If I knew I could live long enough to do it... I would but even so, you would not have near enough time to learn anything practical 70, 80 years anint enough knowing a little about a lot is less useful than a lot about a little Yes anyways back to the discussion, lar1, do you understand what reflection is? depends on the environment it would be wholly less efficient team leads are better if they know a little about a lot....specialized programmers had better know a lot about their niche man ive had almost 100ozs of water in the last 2 hours. gotta love anchoives you can add new features to a language and they become as if they were part of the language, not added on top Tril: Yes I understand what it is. But I am still a little hasy on why this is a good thing hiya liar and you can take features out that you don't need. Or adjust the ones there, slightly. it isn't sounds like he's trying to make a self contained version of VB Tril: Won't that lead to bloat and nonstandard code? only without standards, and perpetually expanding Tril: Uh oh, you can't run app X you don't have the pdq extention! nope, all the variations of languages produced under reflection, will interoperate seamlessly. exactly lar like I said, lar has a bright future that's why it is useful Sounds like DLLs, except more intergrated all your programs can share features good luck... No no no no! It looks good on paper in fact, you don't write programs anymore, just individual "capabilities" to be added to the "whole" system. That makes 0 sense yeah, it'll drag ass too So you are going to dynamically link the programs to the kernel or something? to become 'part of the system' _bad news_ not a kernel, it's called a meta-evaluator hmmmmm......think he's going for a non kernel system...somehow And how is this 'meta-evaluator' different then a kernel? see sounds like a sneaky way of saying interpreter it interprets each of the individual interpreters for the langauges in your system. * lar1/#tunes belives only in real kernels, no uK no exo, just plain, simple, reliable kernel That will be s-l-o-w Thats like VB on steroids lar....micro or monolithic? ruiner: What? Oh * ruiner/#tunes thinks exokernels sound sweet I perfer monolithic ah 12:10am no it's been shown that reflective systems are only slightly slower than the closest non-reflective equivalent. And in theory, they could be made MUCH FASTER due to increased high-level information available about the entire system. That's one thing we're trying to do in TUNES. the ONE thing I know for sure I agree with Tril about is that OOP is crap Analogy. TUNES = Forth but then he seems to be headed that direction with his OS....disturbing ruiner, tunes is not an OS... Its a computing envrioment it is a software environment. It need not be an OS, to be TUNES when it includes OS features, it would be better, sure uhhuh.... ruiner: In other words it can run inside another OS as an application as soon as it gets past the drawing board let me know sounds dragging ass slow I don't like this idea... For just that reason ruiner I'll help out like i always say * ruiner/#tunes shudders at the thought of running Tunes in windows But I don't think its gonna work how can it be slow, when it is a specification? Only implementations have speed. and how exactly would you deal with the security restrictions of NT? ruiner: you mean the security holes? can't do anything about i'm sure what you meant I mean the fact that your programmers are going to want access to hardware for some apps, and NT won't give it to you is that it will be HARD to implement a fast one. but, isnt that what implementors like, challenges? so basically, TUNES is already dead to the NT platform damnit my tv just went into suspend mode :) implementors = programmers ruiner: I said running TUNES as its own OS would be better... lar1: yes, so? business depends on NT a lot... That kinda contradicts what you were saying before, tril I think you're living a pipe dream as far as who is gonna use it Basiclly you said programming is boring. But implementors like to program -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes cuz your average joe blow homebody computer geek wannabe porn hound isn't gonna mess with it tunes is not comparable to an OS. A complete reflective system includes OS+compiler+development environment+debugging+editors+people+hardware Tril: Thats like saying Linux isn't an OS because it comes with GCC and HOWTOs Tril....I'm sorry to say this....but get off the ship now before it sinks ruiner: who's going to be writing for that dude? i sure wouldn't you write for the user it's not a contradiction. people who want to cash in on his ignorance....make pretty apps that any lobotomized zombie can understand (MS) 12:20am MS has a good racket going...making an os simpler to use further removing the user from the underlying machine perpetuating even more ignorance...making them more reliant on MS what a money making gem simple? ha Because not everone wants to know everthing about everthing! more like they've forced suppliers to put the os on most hardware lar has the hacker spirit -:- SignOff Mr_Wrong: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Mr_Wrong[adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net]) Ruiner: Thanks ;) that too eihrul.... i doubt any one of those people could even reinstall Win9x on their computer but why can't the suppliers stand up to ms? cuz consumers demand windows i think your'e wrong ruiner, MS apps are hard to understand -:- Mr_Wrong [seanl@adsl-63-192-213-146.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #tunes windows in inconsistent and makes no sense. You must learn new interfaces in every program you install. ruiner: Because the devlopers write for windows, becase that what the OEM guys use ruiner: it's a chicken and the egg situation... consumers demand windows because it's there eihrul: exactly! maybe to you, but to the point and click slaves, its all they can understand ala the money begats more money phenomenon no, it's all they've been given to understand if all computers came with some other os, they'd eventually find out how to use it somewhat simply because they had to they'd have no choice otherwise true.....but given the choice..... even better. If computers came with NO OS. They would have to learn how to write one. now THAT would be cool tril not quite But should you have to grok a computer just to use it? and if all computers were different, so the same OS couldnt run on them anyway. that'd take care of all the bloat in the computer industry too..wouldn't be such an attractive place to make a living there probably wouldn't be a computer industry then actually tril...thats an elitist attitude you have... ;-p i dont actually believe that, btw I think the OS should be easy to learn how to use for what you want, but then also easy to delve in deeper so you can udnerstand how it works. mine is gonna come with all kinds of low level apps Tril: What you propose is impossable I should get cult of the dead cow to write lots of stuff for my os to break windows lar1: good, why bother doing something when you know it is possible Thats like saying I want it to be easy to live in the universe and easy to understand every aspect of it heh heh heh Tril: :) we have limited control over the universe that we know of speak for you self we have a orders of magnitude more control over programs we write I disagree eihrul that was part of a contrast :) we have complete control over the universe so don't necessarily take that statement individually all deals with perception perhaps i should have said: you, individually, at this point in time, have little control over the universe as a whole eihrul, nah, your contrast fails. The universe and programs are too much alike :) all deals with perception in principle, but alas not in practice eihrul: I aggree with yer second contrast you suck then, dude night the purpose of TUNES is to give complete control over the software to the user. er wait -:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) thought you were disagreeing :) must be kinda late.... i'm adding letters onto other people's words tril...you're building a brick house on a foundation of playing cards play with the hand you're dealt, no? :) ruiner: yes, well, in reflection you build down anyway. So that's ok. 12:30am Tril: You can't start a house from the roof starting at the high level, and going down to the low level start with the concepts, the purpose behind it and then find how to express it in a particular framework. I'm gonna issue a challenge.... wheras CURRENT systems, you start with the framework (Hardware) and try to write a language that runs fast on it. BAD idea it will be not useful for people to program in it. given your superior programming skills...and that you've laid out how you want your os to work...you should have the edge...but here is the challenge... Tril: But the framework can't be changes unless you are intel I propose a race...see who can get their OS/software environment up and running first RavenOS! I like this race better: who can have their OS/software environment up and running last. what about it lar? Not get it STARTED running last.. but get it STOPPED running last whats the point of that? i propose an analysis! when all OS's cross the finish line, see which is the best one! :) RavenOS! It will fly! which OS will stand the test of time , and evolve but will it be useful? I hope to god yes! sure... DOS was fast but it sucked eh? you mean see who can keep their os on life support longer before the project is dropped? what is the lifespan of an OS. 3 years? * ruiner/#tunes loved dos Windows still runs on dos, which is from the 80s ruiner: no how long the OS is in general use worldwide how long it is still useful lar1: and WIndows is slow and less useful on possibly very different kinds of computers that we dont know about yet, that arent invented can your OS translate itself to new hardware? lar1: but dos in itself is not as useful as other modern systems you mean as competition to linux/be/windows? if not, you lose Tril: Its called porting can you port it to a quantum computer? how about a liquid computer? given a language abstract enough, sure eirhul begins to see the light never get there tril.... the most abstract possible language, suitable for representing any other possible language inside itself and i thought that comment was in spite of :) but i guess it works both ways? cuz yours will be so slow it'll be dead long before anything of the type comes along ruiner: i don't see why slow at what? everything given enough information about a program Interpeters for interpeters?? you could optimize it adeptly EVERYTHING will be interpreted at least 2 times right? think about it this way. A language so powerful, maybe if it runs slow the first time, but you can write in it a compiler that optimizes orders of magnitude better than ones in another language. just thinking of it makes my butt feel like it has gravel embedded in it from dragging it down the street ruiner: In fact everything is interpreted infinite number of times cuz it will drag ass Tril: How? not on the computer, but that's how it appears ruiner: thou must suffer before thou comes unto paradise * ruiner/#tunes yawns something like that don't let him pull you into an argument like that lar ruier: :) it's true, every interpreter needs one above it. how else would it run? Tril: And that applies to _everything_ ? 12:40am what? tril: who interprets the universe then? you Tril: I see your point i mean that objectively, not constructively :P Tril: And it is quite valid, but not practical in the computing worls heh heh... if the computer interprets tunes, and the universe interprets the computer... Shall we make BASIC reflective? look at it this way....you interpret the universe, but what tril is proposing is adding 20 different levels of people to censor what you can see no... yes what tril is proposing is allowing you to change how you see yourself lar1, in the last paper Paul posted on the tunes list, there is an infinite tower of interpreters, but it is emulated by a program called the meta-evaluator. The M-E simulates infinite interpreters by creating them as they are used and then taking them away when they are no longer used. (Used= A level below it uses reflection to access the level above) the M-E is a regular interpreter that runs on a computer adding interpreters on top of interpreters is just begging to give up speed bah! tril speaks of www.cb1.com/~john/thesis/thesis.html hi hcf, you are still here :) yep ruiner speaks of suck it I don't understand how interpeting 10 million times will be fast? Intel added the TLB cause interpting 2 times was bad! ruiner is thinking the way intel wants him to, then. soooo incredibly wrong....the only way I can see tunes as being useful is as an application in other OS's lar is not understanding what intel has to do with it * ruiner/#tunes is intel's bitch stop thinking about speed. think about WHAT you are running that you are measuring the speed of. Final Fantasy 7 I want to play that in TUNES I love that game and 8 looks cool too! What about quake II or III?? there is one simple reason why you cant complain about the speed of reflective systems. Because they output non-reflective systems that can be just as fast as you want. hmmmm...... Now it's time for me to sleep. I'll come back tomorrow. maybe Heh, ok tril, well argure later night tril night tirl nice talking to you both * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] Yes, likewise I still say he's wrong Me too But he has interesting points you have impressed me lar Just not practal IMHO thanks :) obi wan has taught you well, but you are not yet a jedi but at the very least, practical if not practal ;-p Like my spelling eihrul it's fun to take advantage of Yes ruiner: I wish there were more _young_ jedi tranies around me I hate women.....if it wasn't for being straight I'd give up on them trainees Hehe! Thats a cool quote cut off your genatalia I like my pee pee reflect on yourself... 12:50am Use an interpter each day I become more and more convinced every woman I know is a lesbian cuz I'm just dead sexy I become more convinced that no hot female geeks live in San Jose why would you want a female geek? Because personally I want somebody who is different enough from me to actually be interesting Then you have nothing in common, nothing to talk about, bad news but will still be excited when I come up with a new way to code this or that...even if they don't really understand it _that_ would be cool yeah... Godamn that would be cool that would suck why's that? cuz you can step on a person's foot and make them excited eihrul: It would suck cause it wouldn't las long it doesn't really do much for you * lar1/#tunes senses some nasty conversation coming up blah blah blah....leave it to eihrul to twist my words around to mean something totally different that what was originally intended the 14 year old knew what I meant.....why couldn't you? :) hopefully by the time the kid is old enough to work for a software company I'll have one up and running and established...the kid is cool in my book i'm just interpreting what you state so far anyways... I think you need to add a few more levels to it.... At least 10 million perhaps you're speaking at too abstract a level like when I say something now, it should take you maybe....4 hours to come up with a response such that you're leaving large gaps for me to fill in in ways that not satisfactory :) heh hmmmm.....question.... : but even so a friend is pushing me to try for a job at a place in sweden...probably not programming....maybe art or level design perhaps you did not grasp your statement: do I go for it or not? you said you want them to be excited without having any real understanding of what to be excited about I don't really wanna argue about that....you know what I meant ruiner: I wouldn't i don't right there if you don't mean what you say... reasons? ruiner: It would get boring ruiner: sit and make levels all day in what way? any excitement thereof would be essentially false, as the person would not know why they are excited ah.... hmmmmmm....... * ruiner/#tunes senses that he should ignore eihrul 01:00am like trying to use a computer without wanting to learn or have any sense of the underlying mechanisms, at all suppose I wouldn't mind making levels all day? eihrul: Are you saying I must grok all internel workings of computers if I woujld like to play a game nope ruiner said it :) ruiner: Then I would probly go... but I'd check out sweeden first just ignore him....he's just arguing for the sake of arguing Yes you mean like go to see what its like? can't afford to fly over there beforehand no, read up on.... Make sure the govit is in an ok sate and such ah....no worries (however ok a govit can be :) ) damn lar....you are impressing me gov't = bad....good lesson to learn early on Yes it is and the screw em lesson is good I have my style and if someone don't like it? Screw em! you're too much like me.... heh heh heh Mabye you are my long lost brother? that does it...if I'm set up with a cushy business of my own, and we're still in contact you're invited aboard... Yay! for minimum wage or something just don't hold your breath, I'm chronically lazy Nah, I don't hold my breath unless I am swimming depends on how well I was doing....I'd pay what I could...seeing as how I'd probably only hire friends eihrul: At my age, any pay is good pay :) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) (almost) i'd say that expands to the set of all unemployed people (i.e. me) True ack... why didn't i think of that me too...hopefully not too much longer though, I need cash didnt think of what? move-to-front + probing 01:10am reading through AOCP I'm gonna head off to bed guys.....catch you later -:- SignOff ruiner: #TUNES (Leaving) night ruiner * lar1/#tunes thinks tonights conversation will make a nice addition to the logs 1 am! Wow! I lost track of time!!! logs are good Yes * lar1/#tunes also hopes no one was pissed off too much ;) pissing off is good case depending agreed 01:20am Why is Hewitt spelled with 2 ts? it's a name... and name's suck er names Would you prefer to be called by a number? that would be cool 6789900987328497023872345-349859 is yer number Now is it cool? if there were some way to easily remember the number yes It says yer country, state, zip, and universal person nuber but if this were your name: Fahoifhoifsdhoifhdsoifhdsoifgoidsfgoisfgoids is that cool? Hmmm Harder to rememer faidfasdfkjasodifajksd;flakdfja that would suck Yes now... if this were your number: 1234567890987654321 that would be doubly cool Yes But it won't work in poems :(