IRC log started Sun Jul 11 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0711 -:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]) -:- binEng [Anders@195.84.234.31] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes apt? apt-get install apt [alex@glapp alex]$ type apt-get type: apt-get: not found too bad for you. Go debian! Ah, I see. Well I have rpm:s anyway... :) s/Ah/Oh/ * Fare/#Tunes upgraded his router from RH5.0 to deb2.1 w/o rebooting, the other day Hmm... redhat, debian, slackware, what's the difference... Try NetBSD maybe... It's not GPL though... rpm are far better than windows' InstallShield Wizard. :-D s/are/is but still not as good as .deb :) (except for fast query) 04:10am I did: for rpm in *.rpm; do rpm -qip $rpm; rpm -qlp $rpm; end >rpmlist.txt Probably the wrong way to do things, but expedient. :) rpm -qilp is simpler and faster Didn't work, I think... 04:20am Oh, I love AFS! No more FTP! [alex@glapp java]$ pwd [alex@glapp java]$ cp -r studs99 ~/proj/studs/studs2000/utbildning/java/ damn... s/damn/fsck Seen this before? [alex@glapp tunes]$ cvs -z 9 update -d Segmentation fault (core dumped) 04:30am -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-164.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- water has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: A Free Reflective Computing System at http://www.tunes.org/ -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-205-158.s158.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-219.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes om I just posted to the list... k -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Read error to Fare[quatramaran.ens.fr]: Connection reset by peer) 07:00am atg: oh! you're alan grimes didn't know 07:10am AlonzoTG: what are you smoking anyway? :) just kidding om atg: awake? wut? just wondering about what you were thinking about with respect to your post * AlonzoTG/#tunes is trying to make the LAST WORD in OSes 07:20am yeah sure whatever you won't get there by reading GEB too many times * AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to learn more information theorie... you need to learn a lot of things to make the LAST WORD and you have to pick what you learn carefully so that you don't waste too much time =\ me doesn't have too much time... how old are you? I am going to try to spew out a half-way OS in the mean time... 21 i'm the same age there's plenty of time Not at all... I figure I need 150 years... why not? bullshit With curent rate of medical progress I only expect to live another 100 you obviously want to learn too much no, you'll live about 150 more most likely you really only need 10 anyway the best ideas don't take longer than that Everything in existance is not too much to learn! =P hehe if your ideas are so complicated that 10 years won't do it, then they aren 't worth it =\ I am not sure yet. just learn the major architectural ideas Clarke mentioned that some of the projects in some of his stories spanned over many millinia the details are trivial in fiction! You can't very well rite an OS without details!!! details are arbitrary How do you ekspeckt me to rite an OS without knowing how the f00bar floppy disk controller werks... =\ you don't have to know I could possibly hire a systems programmer... the computer software writing the os DOES maybe you don't get the tunes idea yes, I need to write that softwarez too eye doo too * water/#tunes hits atg over the head with a big Tunes clue-stick. Sigh... 07:30am I need to network with some compiler/language eksperts... usenet ! research on the web besides, why are you the expert on what you "need"? you're the one who's looking for the answers, so the fact that you don't have them at all shows that you also don't yet know how to get them I have a few books on compilers... good, but they're probably only for C-alikes, right? probably... or pascal or modula C isn't the FINAL WORD in programming agreeed or pascal or modula =\ have you looked at functional or oo programming? Thats the purpose behind the first two hypothesi in my post... Yes I have looked at lisp a little, that's cool... huh? what's the purpose? To tyr to determine what a better language would look like... I don't know what I'm looking for. and that has to do with ordered sequences of numbers? how? Information theory information theory is a far from complete field =\ sorry... * AlonzoTG/#tunes needs to become an information theorist my arrows are supposed to work on that info theory, that is -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes one of my new papers will address that don't worry, the new ones will be much clearer than the original good.. I have your old arrows paper sitting right next to me... =P can't be duller hehe man, my room is a mess... Fare's right about that, though i tried the first time * Fare/#Tunes reads a paper by lamport although Fare's papers aren't much better 07:40am water: there's nothing wrong about trying and failing -- especially a first time my own papers are often quite bad thanks my new website is users.erols.com/alangrimes/ =) water: http://www.acm.org/sigplan/conferences/author-info/ ok ATG: can I quote you on pyramid schemes? sure! =) water: http://www.inria.fr/chir/personnel/eve/GuideEcriturePapiers.ps.gz got it haven't read it fully yet :( too much to read water: you should read that gep paper i know. the first part looked helpful * Fare/#Tunes will strive towards writing better papers especially technical papers my, that violin player plays extremely good, but too fast Gil Shaham playing Kabalevski's concerto 07:50am Maybe we should use Microsoft Netmeeting instead so we could hear it. :) * AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes Oddity with an Iron Butterfly Hehe... :) * Oddity/#tunes lures Alonzo to #sandbox and throws sand at him. :) sandbox? Is that what it's called? om * Fare/#Tunes hates proprietary music, too * Oddity/#tunes wants source for his music. (That is, not just (a copy of) the master tape.) source is cool... If I had source to say some led zeppelin songs I would be soo grinning. =) but actual recordings from neuron synapses is best :) s/is/are hehe linux? rumour has it linux is elementary penguin singing hare krishna or a junkie delite or a junkie delight yeah * Oddity/#tunes abo -:- Oddity is now known as abo new movie: Linus Trovolds or how I gave up hope and loved the Penguin! =P hehe 08:00am -:- smkl [sami@MCCCLXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] has joined #tunes -:- s_r [sr@phila-dialup543.nni.com] has joined #tunes Fare: pretty good suggestions in that paper * water/#tunes just discovered that one of his Arrow paper terms should be re-named only one? yes, only one. the others actually fit i.e. they draw on existing research terminology i'm sorry if you're not aware of that research, but i wasn't able to address that in the first paper trust me, the new papers will help this too looking forward to it i hope i can make it work it's just that i discovered this new paper in knowledge-representation research that would help immensely it's nice and simple, too write your paper in latex, and use standard .bib bibliography i should i just haven't learned enough of those standards learn by doing: get an existing paper, and munge it until it turns into yours my papers, for what they are worth, are freely available with sources hmm ok if you find other papers that come with source, tell me! it's a shame that present ontology research is limited to first-order logic, if even that Fare: the LANL archives mostly include latex do they? mostly yes have a url? just a sec 08:50am http://xxx.lanl.gov/ it's the archive most tuned to my interests with the exception of knowledge systems a.k.a. info systems they also have a subscription based service raptor.lanl.gov the best part is that if they have the source, they only store that, and dynamically generate dvi, various ps types, and pdf on demand sr: what's that? "500: Unable to connect to host" i remembered it from somewhere, it's just some host on the LANL network oh water: you like linux? hell no it isn't for me at all maybe you should run BeOS i probably should i think you could get smalltalk for BeOS definitely BeSqueak what don't you like about Linux? hmm linux is intimidating, it's overwhelmingly esoteric at times same thing that i don't like about DOS/Doze that is? text-based water: but there is X hehe Xconfig bleh text is GOOD. ok. ever heard about LITERACY ? sure. whatever literacy is not about computer languages Fare: have you tried any other OSes? Is Linux your favorite of them all? * water/#tunes thinks Fare must hate Macintoshes for more than political reasons. Before I had one, I loved MacIntoshes the more I use them, the more I hate them even worse than Windows! any system that boots a GUI without so much as a few thousand lines of text messages 09:00am Fare: have you tried BeOS? Fare: it's the same for me and linux s_r: I have no time to waste with it -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-tnt-219.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-219.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes darn peer :) [msg(peer)] stop it * Fare/#Tunes is watching a historical document on Tibet -:- Fare is now known as peer * peer/#Tunes resets connections * water/#tunes is reading a paper called "The Ontological Level" -:- s_r is now known as ^water^ -:- peer is now known as s_r <^water^> heh -:- ^water^ is now known as s^r uhh bored, guys? water have you read any of Curry's works? i think so i've definitely read church and rosser and some others -:- s_r is now known as Fare sr: why? curious i haven't read any of his works oh i've read much about his works i.e. technical derivatives 09:10am -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-67.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes back 09:40am Fare: what do you think about this statement? "Tunes should be concerned with knowledge systems because knowledge represents significant meta-information which can be re-used in ways useful to the Tunes computing system." I could consider my interest in the subject of knowledge systems to stem from that reasoning. I'm interested in your thoughts. om hmm. refine that as "knowledge about self" being useful for Tunes to do that we whill need to eskape Godel's inkompl33tness theorem.... =\ hmmm someone wants to port Linux to the N64 Linux/64 godel's incompleteness theorem only applies to first-order systems in isolation =\ * AlonzoTG/#tunes understands not. =((((( let's see if i can sumarize godel reasoned that any single first-order theory is insufficient to answer all possible questions about a subject. his particular example to iterate upon was set theory and first-order logic. 09:50am * water/#tunes gets his book on logic -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) darn 10:00am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us819.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hey hcf hoy water 10:10am hcf: are you pretty opinionated about Tunes? i hope so no, sorry hmm wanna argue? ;) hehe a question originally for Fare: what do you think about this statement? "Tunes should be concerned with knowledge systems because knowledge represents significant meta-information which can be re-used in ways useful to the Tunes computing system." I could consider my interest in the subject of knowledge systems to stem from that reasoning. I'm interested in your thoughts. i was thinking about knowledge about self, of course what self knowledge is useful? certainly knowledge systems are useful, at the metalevel knowledge gained by reflection right. metalevel wrt code but to begin with, we need build the framework that make knowledge possible and possibly useful that's a loaded statement though I think of Tunes as a basic framework on top of which to build knowledge-based metaprograms ahh. i disagree entirely ok, good, here we go ;) what charactierizes that framework? do you know? or is it an indirect definition? hello? 10:20am is anyone still here? hmm .. i am >>> smkl [sami@MCCCLXIII.rdyn.saunalahti.fi] requested PING 931711443 467433 from #tunes and there is no lag there certainly isn't hum what characterizes the framework is 1) expressiveness 2) the ability to dynamically define ties between extensions and intensions well, expressiveness on the order of lisp is no problem yes it is #2 however is vague to me it _is_ a problem? why? #1 and #2 can only be understood with a distributed computing model; not with a static centralized model i.e. computing as communication ok. you assume a context. communication? as in mesage-based? w/o context, there is nothing beyond computability duh explain what a distributed computing model entails besides the web site stuff it entails that you may want to express complex relations between past and future messages but "you" is centralized as a concept every "you" is conceptually centralized or rather, seperated well, what's your separation unit a concept of self is not a center. It's a boundary. what's the "you" duh 10:30am you're not giving me a good impression of your idea of this "framework" Maybe there are still things I don't understand hmm The framework is a computing system (think programming language+OS) i'm there it interacts with the external world but the external world shouldn't be undifferentiated to it. it should see things like itself in others otherwise, i would consider it to have attributes of a centralized computing system -:- SignOff s^r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s^r[phila-dialup543.nni.com]) -:- s_rr [sr@phila-dialup602.nni.com] has joined #tunes because it would be the sole source of tunes-like properties in its own views 10:40am it can associate internal models to external things is that association basic, or does the user have to work to create it? I'm not sure what you mean. But I'll answer this way: to *express* something is not the same as to *implement* it Tunes will not just allow users to *implement* things it will allow them to *express* them would the framework support such a thing trivially, or would it require something more of the user than a basic action any reasonably expressive system can *implement* any other one no new info there (NNIT) it takes reflection to be able to express any other thing but how much? I'm not sure what you ask reflection is not a constant. you don't just have it or don't have it water: I admit my lambdaND paper was unreadable, but you said you grokked it all reflective actions are not equal, i suppose perhaps not equally expressive water: well, it proposed some kind of reflection that either you had or not :) sigh... water: looks like we're in a gigo cycle again garbage in -> garbage out sr: yes i'm trying to reacha strong refinement of your framework notion water: go ahead i consider ontologies to be helpful in that in fact, very helpful do you understand what i mean by "ontology"? 10:50am no hmm they originate in declarative programming a generic word as imprecise as my "framework" notion? as they pertain to knowledge systems sometimes there are several notions. a few are precisely defined the imprecise ones are those originating in philosophy and ai oh, if you use the word in the context of AI knowledge systems, then I understand (well, more or less) what do you understand it to mean, then? something like a module for knowledge-based system. A general context for the AI "mind". hmm not precise abi ontology? ontology is, like, a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world ontologies in your terms are direct expressions that are coherent or, mappings from expressions to implementations make sense? uh? no 11:00am I don't understand if you're defining a word, and in what domain of validity. hmm well, i'm not going to stick with a definition just yet to do so would be a milestone for the knowledge based development research community uh? they don't have a precise definition that is abstracted from computation i won't propose one until i am sure of it's applicability well, ontologies are supposed to be expressions of "what is" for an agent and what basic relations hold between things for that agent is that another word for "semantics" ??? in logic, it tells the agent (interpreter, theorem prover, ... ) what the symbols represent or for "environment" ??? it's a term in the field of semantics i don't know what you mean by those terms not precisely -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-233-30.s538.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 11:10am I guess I use those terms in the same way as the whole ACM SIGPLAN community you assume too much then that introduces a lot of noise into the definition for me om maybe you could say that an ontology is a module of semantics for the purposes of argument it has a source and destination, and can be composed for knowledge systems, it's English terms to prolog or Cyc or some other declarative language * Fare/#Tunes fetches 61453 huh? -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.244] has joined #tunes Shalom! hi kauf bar mitzpah? :) ok, so i butchered that s/p/v/; ah Fare: what are you up to? 11:20am "Researchers in artificial intelligence are faced with the need to specify the semantics of elementary propositions as well as complex ones." This I believe characterizes the ontology-concerned programmer with the average one. darn "Researchers in artificial intelligence are faced with the need to specify the semantics of elementary propositions as well as complex ones." This I believe characterizes the ontology-concerned programmer with the average one. who are you quoting? Bill Woods Oh boy, did I misread that. "Representation and Understanding: Studies in Cognitive Science" I thought you said "Tiger Woods". :) hehe I was trying to figure out how a golf champion knew so much about AI research. s/characterizes/distinguishes -:- binEng [Anders@dialup83-2-27.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes