IRC log started Thu Jun 24 00:00:00 1999
<_QZ> i work at mcdonalds
<_QZ> fry boy
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0624
<HickServ> c'mon
<HickServ> tell me
<_QZ> im serious
<HickServ> hmmm
<HickServ> are you shitting me?
<HickServ> and you have a bachlors in EE?
<_QZ> uhh, ya
<HickServ> you lie qz
<_QZ> u callin me a liar?
<HickServ> im sure the fry boy salary is enough to efford all the computers you have and internet service
<_QZ> btw there is no 's' on bachelor
<HickServ> afford
<_QZ> ya, us utah fry boys get paid well :)
<HickServ> bull
<HickServ> you lie
<_QZ> goto www.utah.mcdonalds.com and look at the wages
12:10am
<HickServ> that url doesn't exist
<_QZ> www.mcdonalds.com/utah
<HickServ> page not found lier
<_QZ> hmm, amd is gonna call the k7 the ATHLON
<HickServ> i heard
<_QZ> did amd manufacture 8086/8's?
<_QZ> or 80186's?
<HickServ> i didn't know they're even that old
<_QZ> i know that amd helped make intels 386 and 486's
<_QZ> but i dontthink they made any 286's or below
<HickServ> i was reading the i386 system software writers guide this week
<_QZ> yet they call the K7 their 7th generation processor
<HickServ> i think that was the book linus torvalds had
<HickServ> it talks about "hypothetically" implementing a system V kernel on a 386
<_QZ> wow u have the very book that linus read?
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> i don't know that he read it
<HickServ> i bet he did though
<HickServ> don't play games with me qz
<HickServ> i can see right through you
<HickServ> you are a sly one 
<HickServ> i will keep my eyes on you
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> did he write any comments or notes in the book?
<_QZ> what did u pay for it?
<HickServ> yeah he's my bitch
<_QZ> :)
12:20am
<HickServ> did  you know he screams out in finnish when he's at the peak of sexual pleasure?
<_QZ> i dont think i want to know that
<HickServ> too late
<HickServ> did you get that new image compiled yet?
<_QZ> what image
<abi> well, image is a very old one
<HickServ> for brix
<_QZ> brix?
<abi> rumour has it brix is my OS, http://www.qzx.com/brix, <Fare> who cares about BRiX? It's evil proprietary software! or mormonic
<_QZ> brix?
<abi> brix is canelled and the source rm'd
<HickServ> wtf?
<HickServ> you wouldn't do that
<_QZ> done
<HickServ> rm the source of brix
<HickServ> why?
<_QZ> i had to so i wouldnt change my mind and keep working on it
<HickServ> why don't you want to continue working on it?
<_QZ> tired
<_QZ> damn that athlon bitch is pricey
<HickServ> hmmm
<HickServ> this is strange
<HickServ> are you on crack?
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> well maybe
<HickServ> you put a bunch of time into an OS and then get rid of it ona whim
<_QZ> well i kinda got a job at Microsoft
<HickServ> oh really?
<_QZ> yes
* HickServ/#tunes nods his head in disbelief
12:30am
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<HickServ> doing what qz?
<_QZ> it hurt me to do it but the pay was too good
<_QZ> i am not at liberty to say
<HickServ> oh god
<HickServ> are you just playing more games with me?
<_QZ> wish i was
<HickServ> well i guess i'll just have to concentrate on my own projects then
<HickServ> BRiX looked promising
<_QZ> that will be futile
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<HickServ> you'll be on akick if fare hears about you working for m$
<_QZ> ya well just donttell him
<HickServ> oh well
<HickServ> i don't like change
<_QZ> oh and please dont use that insulting 2 letter name for Microsoft
<HickServ> i'd rather be back in that little java based chat i was in last summer not knowing anything i know now 
<HickServ> good ole days
12:40am
<_QZ> well good things will be comming out of Microsoft in the next year
<HickServ> windows 2000 ooo
<_QZ> night
<HickServ> im so very happy
* HickServ/#tunes :\
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
<Tril> hehe
<HickServ> hmmm
<HickServ> tell me tril what do you do in the tunes project?
<Tril> i run the server, and i do research for the hll subproject
<HickServ> ok
<HickServ> it's just kinda weird
<Tril> what
<HickServ> im back to the same place i was last summer when i just got on the internet
<HickServ> im up late at night chatting away
<Tril> and... why is that weird
<HickServ> i don't know
<HickServ> i've met so many people and now most of them are gone
<HickServ> i guess i mis a few of them
12:50am
<HickServ> :(
01:00am
* HickServ/#tunes is lonely
<HickServ> hey tril yo awake?
02:10am
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<HickServ> hi
<hcf> lo
<HickServ> im in a rut
<HickServ> im trying to work on my programming language but i have two expressions that define themselves from each other
<HickServ> what a rut!!!
<hcf> rut, sexual excitement of male mammals
<hcf> what r the exprs?
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> well i figured it out
<HickServ> but you'd kinda have to know the language to understand it
<hcf> got specs?
<hcf> ;)
<HickServ> im writing them up right now
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: got specs? (tunes project @ www.tunes.org)
<HickServ> i gotta email them to s_r
<HickServ> and then when i get that done im gonna write the first part of the compiler
04:10am
-:- HickServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: hcf changes topic to 'got specs? (tunes project @ www.tunes.org) | Bueno Labs wants you.
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: got specs? || tunes project @ www.tunes.org || Bueno Labs wants you
<HickServ> ooops
<HickServ> my bad
<HickServ> well im back in my rut
<hcf> u need to find a female in an estrus
<HickServ> estrus?
<hcf> female version of rut
<HickServ> ah
<HickServ> i could sure use a female right now
* hcf/#tunes gathers the species wouldnt matter
<HickServ> aye
<HickServ> i need to make my parser be able to understand recursuve definitions
04:20am
<HickServ> ok im screwing myself up
* HickServ/#tunes hits himself over the head
04:30am
<HickServ> this is getting to me
<HickServ> i must stop for a while
04:40am
<HickServ> uh oh
<HickServ> my dad says i have to go to bed
<HickServ> night
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:\)
04:50am
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<Cobol> ruif, goodness. People are here, errr, brb.
06:50am
-:- Cobol has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Tunes: the largest AppWizard ever designed.
<Cobol> bbl
-:- SignOff Cobol: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:10am
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<billyboof> hello
<s_r> hey
<billyboof> hows it going s_r
<s_r> are you working on the OS now?
<billyboof> no... i woke up 5minutes ago...
<s_r> heh
<billyboof> i'm just checking my email and saying whats up....
<billyboof> going to have breakfast in a little bit
<s_r> have any dreams?
* billyboof/#tunes slept like a deal log
<billyboof> nope... :)
<billyboof> probably better that way...
<billyboof> dreams usually aren't a good thing for me
<s_r> hehe maybe you dreamt about some great idea that will revolutionize OSes
<billyboof> nope.... all my dreams involve friends dieing or getting beaten an have come true before
<billyboof> twice that i can think of ... once i had a dream about a friend of mine dieing and he did like 1 week later... and another time i had a dream that my friend father did something to her and the next time i talked to her she said that her father beat the shit out of her the night before
* billyboof/#tunes doesn't like dreams
<s_r> whoa
<billyboof> worst part is that in both cases they were re-occuring dreams
<billyboof> made me kinda miss the dreams where i'd fall off cliffs or get shot ...
<s_r> yeah
08:00am
<s_r> dreams where you get shot
<billyboof> yeah... those weren't too re-occuring... the one that i had the most was the one where i feel off a cliff...
<billyboof> you've had the dream where you're falling right?
<s_r> yeah
<billyboof> you  ever hit the ground?
<s_r> no
<billyboof> ot
<billyboof> err
<billyboof> it's a pretty big thrill...
* billyboof/#tunes got over the fear of dieing for real when you hit the ground in a dream
<s_r> did you ever get those dreams where something happens in the dream like you stumble and your body sort of jumps in real life while you are having that dream
<billyboof> yeah...
<billyboof> that happened in all the  dreams where i was falling or getting shot at <except the one time when i actually hit the ground>
<billyboof> when i was falling i always felt myself fall into the bed really hard.....
<billyboof> and when i was getting shot i was always trying to get away from them, but even in the dream i was unable to stand up, so i tried dragging my body... which was really hard...
<billyboof> cause i was actually trying to drag my sleeping body
<billyboof> when i actually hit the ground i remember hitting <didn't bounce> and waking up with nerves like i was a junky on the low
<billyboof> oh well... i have to get something to eat....
<billyboof> be back in like 40mins
08:10am
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* billyboof/#tunes is back
<eStormy> hi
<abi> hey, eStormy
08:40am
<billyboof> whats up stormy
<eStormy> i'm messing with vr
<billyboof> virt. reality?  that's cool
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
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<billyboof> wb
08:50am
<eStormy>  when I mentioned V R, amid a voice recognition,  Sari
<eStormy> sorry
<billyboof> ahhh....
<billyboof> hhehe
<billyboof> i figured it'd be something else.. <G>
<eStormy> amid = i meant
<eStormy> silly vr confuses my words
<billyboof> oh... you're talking to the computer now?
<eStormy>  yes, I am
<billyboof> cool...
<eStormy>  I am also running the festival text-to-speech software on one of my IRC Windows
<eStormy>  it talks in a funny fashion.
09:00am
<AlonzoTG> B00F!!!
<billyboof> ALONZOTG!!!
<abi> hmmm... alonzotg is annoying with his greetings messages or probably a bot
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> =P
<eStormy> istormy?
<abi> i heard istormy was happily married, sorry.
<billyboof> estormy?
<abi> estormy is running the festival text-to-speech software on one of eStormy's IRC Windows
<billyboof> billyboof?
<abi> you are a fucking god or see ProOS
<billyboof> hahaha
<billyboof> proos?
<abi> proos is my os project at http://pages.cthome.net/consultant/
<billyboof> abi: forget proos
<abi> billyboof: I forgot proos
<billyboof> prios?
<abi> hmmm... prios is see ProOS
09:10am
<billyboof> abi: forget prios
<abi> billyboof: I forgot prios
<eStormy> abi: facts
<abi> facts are absolute? please!
<billyboof> abi: abi?
<abi> well, i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn
* AlonzoTG/#tunes has some IRON BUTTERFLY! =)
<eStormy> mmmm...what was that command
<billyboof> abi: command?
<abi> billyboof: i haven't a clue
<eStormy> stats?
<eStormy> abi, stats
<abi> Since Thu Jun 10 13:23:35 1999, there have been 762 modifications and 483 questions.  I have been awake for 13 days, 19 hours, 47 minutes, 19 seconds this session, and currently reference 2608 factoids.
<eStormy> finally
<billyboof> abi: factoids?
<abi> no idea, billyboof
<billyboof> billyboof?
<abi> you are a fucking god or see ProOS
<billyboof> abi: forget billyboof
<abi> billyboof: I forgot billyboof
<billyboof> abi: billyboof is a fucking god
<billyboof> billyboof?
<abi> hmmm... billyboof is a fucking god
<billyboof> om?
<billyboof> abi: om?
<abi> no idea, billyboof
<billyboof> hmmm... it says he's a bot
<billyboof> AlonzoTG: om?
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
<billyboof> :( doesn't work
-:- eStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
<billyboof> eStormy: nice connection
<billyboof> =P
<eStormy> i'm using dial-on-demand you guys aren't  talking enough to keep me on
<billyboof> haahhaah
<billyboof> that sucks man..
<billyboof> .../timer 0 2 /msg eStormy not idle
<billyboof> eehhehe
<eStormy> how helpful
<billyboof> hahahahahahaah
<billyboof> ok...
<billyboof> enough of that...
<AlonzoTG> om
09:20am
<billyboof> abi: om is AlonzoTG's favorite saying
<billyboof> om?
<abi> i think om is AlonzoTG's favorite saying
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (eStormy has no reason)
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09:30am
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<s_r> abi, help
<s_r> abi: owner
<s_r> abi: info
<s_r> abi: commands
<AlonzoTG> help?
<AlonzoTG> owner?
<AlonzoTG> abi: owner?
<abi> alonzotg: no idea
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> abi: commands?
<abi> alonzotg: bugger all, i dunno
<s_r> alonzo what's up
<s_r> where are stormy and boof
<s_r> estormy?
<abi> estormy is running the festival text-to-speech software on one of eStormy's IRC Windows
09:50am
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<billyboof> hello
11:20am
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<Fare> gakuk!
<AlonzoTG> om
02:50pm
!ChanServ:*! ^lilo used GETPASS on channel #suseusers
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<Fare> tee see en!
<tcn> howdy, fare
<tcn> i changed my mind.. Unix doesn't suck
<Fare> if I'm lucky, I'll meet Ian Piumarta tomorrow
<tcn> compared to windows
<Fare> tcn: if it doesn't suck, it's purely by relative lack of pression from other OSes
<AlonzoTG> doesn't... *SUCK* ?!?!?!?!?!?!
<AlonzoTG> Are you sure?
<AlonzoTG> I'm sure you will change your mind in about a month. =P
<Fare> ATG: a void container sucks a lot
<tcn> who's Ian?
<AlonzoTG> whats wrong with it?
<Fare> main low-level implementer of Squeak
<tcn> oh ok
<Fare> a neat hacker
<Fare> gotta go sleep.
<tcn> yeah, see ya
<Fare> how's retro, btw?
<Fare> is the rw IDE driver nearing completion?
<tcn> pretty good, I'm rearranging it to get ready for that persistent storage system we talked about
<Fare> yup. Keep me tuned :)
<tcn> I haven't even worked on the IDE in weeks.. but it's easy stuff
<Fare> really gotta go.
<tcn> goodnight
<Fare> Will you be there tomorrow?
<Fare> I have several questions to ask you about the register model used in retro...
<tcn> ok, try about this time
<Fare> ok
<Fare> bye!
<tcn> if I get a chance, I'll stop in in the morning
<tcn> 10 hours earlier
<tcn> see ya
* Fare/#Tunes is away (rrrrrrrrZZZZZZZZ)
03:10pm
<tcn> bye
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03:20pm
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: got specs? || tunes project @ www.tunes.org
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<hcf> hoy binEng
<binEng> hi
<abi> hoy, binEng
<binEng> yes, hi to you too Abi...
04:10pm
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<water> hi all
<binEng> ho
<water> what's up?
<abi> rumour has it up is the opposite of down
<water> hehe
<binEng> I'm trying to look into generalizational approaches in past and present RPGs... so far I've not found much
<water> hmm still thinking about that games then?
<binEng> true
<water> so, what about generalization are you interested in?
<binEng> things that help flexibility and ways of incorporating magic into a rational set of laws of nature
05:00pm
<water> that's an interesting approach. it seems you want to have a rational magic system
<water> you would need a theory of gods, then
<binEng> I think magic should be a consequence of the model used to describe the world and actions therein.
<binEng> Gods? I don't want no feaking gods :)
<binEng> s/feaking/freaking/
<water> but magic is unexplainable! how else could it be magic?
<binEng> yes, you could argue it would cease to be *magic*
<binEng> but I'd like to incorporate stuff that ordinarily would be explained as magic
<water> what if you could derive magical powers from personal action and character, as well as the characteristics of 'gods' (or whatever spiritual powers) from which those powers come?
<binEng> hm
<binEng> that sounds more like 'real' magic, things that go unexplained and hard-coded in the source
<water> yeah
<water> i guess so
<binEng> I want to come away from explicitly telling just what magical actions are possible.
<water> well, i've considered that before
<binEng> and/but... ?
<water> you could give the initiate a framework for spell-casting based on appealing to forces or deities
<binEng> but where would those deities come from?
<water> the initiate could learn to extend the few spells taught into hybrids or something else
<water> well, the software might have a library of deities
<binEng> dynamic or static?
<water> and the initiate's character might be educated about a few
<water> dynamic
<water> (static for the game)
<binEng> even dynamic during run-time?
05:10pm
<water> it would depend on the local culture
<water> huh?
<water> dynamic during runtime? why?
<binEng> would deities be changable as time goes by in the game?
<binEng> that's what I meant
<water> but that doesn't make sense
<water> why would a set of deities change over a person's lifetime
<water> ?
<binEng> :)
<water> uh
<water> ok
<binEng> you never know
<water> well, i guess that it would be usable for that, yes
<water> to the user though, it would merely be like learning of another god
<binEng> I find the whole idea of deities and stuff... unpleasant. (Guess my religious belief :)
<binEng> you're right
<water> deity is a personification of spiritual power
<water> entirely a mental construct
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<water> limbo... !
<binEng> deities could be just another character, but one who has gained *extraordinary* powers
<water> sua-ve!
<water> hehe
<water> those are demi-deities, though
<binEng> what?
<water> demigods
<water> how can you like magic and rpg's and not read mythology?
<binEng> heh. I'm not as totally ignorant as I might seem :) but still
<water> gaining power just makes one powerful
<water> it doesn't make one a god, necessarily
<water> especially because one is often led by arrogance. it's not a natural thing
<water> called "hubris"
<binEng> I still don't like real gods. I'd rather have powerful characters... the effort to get there could be made real big.
05:20pm
<water> i'm not saying that you have to deal with real gods.  it's a figure of speech for forces that the user harnesses
<water> i agree completely with you, though i'm not afraid of the word 'god'
<binEng> I'm not afraid :)
<water> "I still don't like real gods." :)
<binEng> so these... things would actually be forces... like fundamental parts of the laws of physics or something?
<water> sure
<binEng> that's different, of course... but would warshipping help in such case?
<water> if the culture personifies them, call them by name, ... they're gods
<water> "warshipping"?
<binEng> isn't that whay they do? Praying, summoning, or what?
<water> i've never heard it called that before
<water> there's a lot of dimensions to it
<water> btw, if you want to make a game for rpg'ers, keep in mind that many of them _are_ magic users
<water> well, not many
* water/#tunes forgets that most people are fairly stupid
<water> some people _do_ know the difference between various types of magic and enjoy that
<binEng> Actually I'm most interested in the behind-the-scenes works. Making a good game come as a second priority.
<water> no diff
<binEng> What do you think of as "various types of magic"?
<water> their's a real "mechanical" difference between conjuring, summoning, illusions, ...
<water> and praying
<binEng> mechanical in what way? the physical activities, the way games handle it... ?
<water> and the forces behind it are very different in character, so that the results may be wildly different per the user
<water> yes
<water> both in the user's activity and the way it is handled by the spiritual forces
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<binEng> and the game? All the same for it?
<binEng> hi Beh
<water> hi beh
<beholder> Hey Guys
<water> bin: what do you mean?
05:30pm
* beholder/#tunes has been learning Python, very interesting
<water> ok
<beholder> Oh man... 4 second lag... :(
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<beholder> wat: I guess it's because I'm downloading Zelda 64 right now... damn thoese roms are big
<water> hehe
<HickServ> hahaha
<water> cool
<HickServ> they're actually very small
<water> i wish i had a desktop system, so i could have a 3d card
<HickServ> they fit zelda 64 into like 16 megs or something
<beholder> hick: ???  28 megs zipped is small to you? ;)
<HickServ> or 8
<HickServ> what?!
<HickServ> you're getting something else then
<beholder> hick:  It's 28 megs... or 26 depending on if you get the NTSC or PAL version
<HickServ> on the nentendo 64 console it's like 16 megs
<beholder> wat:  If you get a desktop system, I think it will only work on 3DFX cards I think
<water> i know
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<water> hi sr
<HickServ> y0 s_r
<s_r> hi
<HickServ> I got pretty far on my paper and then lost half of it
<beholder> hick: 16Megs?  That's about the size of Mario 64... which is much simpler :)  
<HickServ> i don't know beh
<s_r> does anyone here have experience with SNES images?
<HickServ> so im writing up again how to define words and expressions
<water> sr: what about them?
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<water> wb bin
* binEng/#tunes blames win98
<beholder> wb bin
<water> hehe
* beholder/#tunes is using Win98sr2... seems a whole heck of a lot more stable
05:40pm
<HickServ> anyone used NetDOS or whatever the hell it's called
<beholder> wat:  Have you seen Fare's description of uKernels that was mentioned in his last e-mail to tunes?
<s_r> what are ukernels?
<beholder> hick: NetDOS?
<s_r> NetBSD?
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> hehehe
<beholder> sr:  Micro Kernels... 
<HickServ> im serious
<water> beh: yeah, why?
<HickServ> someone decided to make a new dos
<beholder> wat:  Just curious about what you think of it.
<s_r> OpenDOS, FreeDOS, DR-DOS, MS-DOS, PC-DOS
<s_r> those are the only ones i know of
<s_r> oh yeah and MicroDOS
<HickServ> dr-dos was my daddy
<HickServ> then linux came along
<HickServ> oh
<HickServ> see i meant opendos
<s_r> DOSIX
<HickServ> YES!
<s_r> /c:/dos
<s_r> ^^^ DOSIX
<water> beh: i agree with him, but i don't think about it much
<HickServ> BuenOS
<HickServ> :D
<s_r> is everything that is 32-bit Little Endian, like for example if i moved a new value to the flags register or something like the page register would it be little endian like 0x00210000 would be 0x00002100 in memory?
<s_r> is every 32-bit value in the OS little endian?
<beholder> wat:  Actually it was more of an eye opener to me, I guess I bought into the uKernel hype.  If it's been proven crappy, whey do the companies stick to it?
<HickServ> i think x86 is little endian and sparc is big endian
* binEng/#tunes is having a cough attack (why now you'd care about *that*)
<water> beh: because they can combine c and c++ with modularity
<water> beh: at the os level
<s_r> beholder why call it ukernel? why not just microkernel?
<s_r> or is ukernel something different?
<water> beh: fare's point is that it isn't a good idea
<s_r> ukernel?
<water> sr: u resembles the greek letter "mu" which is used to abbreviate "micro"
<beholder> sr:  u is the greek symbol for micro
<beholder> sr: It's just a short form.  Actually I don't know if I have the proper character in the character set
<s_r> Īkernel
<HickServ> fare's point of view is sometimes clouded
<s_r> ukernel
<water> hs: why?
05:50pm
<s_r> water is ukernel a good idea?
<water> hs: what makes you think that?
<HickServ> <Fare> oo is yucky!
<water> sr: for whom?
<HickServ> <Fare> messaging ewww
<HickServ> to name a few
<water> hs: well, he assumes you understand what he does
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> oh well
<beholder> Hick:  He's right about OO!!
<water> hs: my guess is that you haven't read and thought about the same things he has
<HickServ> why worry about other people :P
<water> hs: because you're on a team!!!
<HickServ> i hate being attacked in the channel :|
<HickServ> i am?
<water> hello? the tunes project?
<HickServ> i haven't done anything for tunes i don't think
<s_r> true object abstraction is often confused with popular concept of "OO"
<s_r> like C++ is not truly object oriented
<water> n/m then
<s_r> oo is a buzzword
<s_r> but what it really means is truly the way to go
<HickServ> ok
<s_r> maybe fare was thinking of the popular C++ OO
<HickServ> i haven't really settled on which subproject i wanna helpp with
<water> sr: actually, he was also considering smalltalk and self
<HickServ> i think i might help on the stdlib project
<beholder> wat:  A combo of the two? 
<s_r> hickserv help on the review subproject
<HickServ> no i don't want to help on that
<water> beh: combo of which two?
<HickServ> the lll is too far forward for me to do any good
<HickServ> :(
<water> hs: why not?
<HickServ> they already have their forth compiler with an 80 word vocab
<water> hs: why not review?
<HickServ> plus my ideas of low and high level languages have changed
<beholder> wat:  Smalltalk and self (bootable versions I assume?)
<HickServ> im a programmer not a researcher
<s_r> lll?
<abi> lll is probably really an executive to be used as compiler target
<water> beh: he considers them both "oo"
<beholder> sr: Low level language
<water> abi: lll is also a low-level language
<abi> okay, water.
<s_r> what is hickserv talking about
<HickServ> tunes low level language
<water> why do you guys hang around this channel if you're not into the project?
<HickServ> infoz :\
<HickServ> i know i know
* water/#tunes sighs
<HickServ> im settling dude
<HickServ> fine brb
* beholder/#tunes came for the project, but stayed for the tea... ;) hehe
* HickServ/#tunes can't stand to see water disappointed
<water> beh: what's on your mind?
<beholder> wat:  At the moment, I'm just wondering about some implementation details about a total OO, kernelless system... it's been brought up in UniOS also
<water> i see
<water> like what?
06:00pm
<beholder> wat:  What loads first the chicken (hardware objects) or the egg (object handler)?
<HickServ> i could join the i386 project
<water> wat: the egg
<HickServ> i know lots about the i386
<HickServ> or the stdlib project
<HickServ> fine both
<water> hs: could you code in VHDL or something?
<HickServ> now im part of the tunes project
<HickServ> vhdl?
<water> hs: verilog hardware description language
<beholder> wat:  How do you load the egg, when you have no hardware objects?  Must the egg be system specific?
<water> hs: we could model the hardware with it
<water> beh: the hardware objects just represent the hardware
<HickServ> hmmm
<HickServ> whatever
<HickServ> i just know a lot about the 386
<water> beh: until then, the bootstrap code acts for them
<water> beh: until loading the hardware objects
<beholder> wat:  What about the FS?  Does that mean you can't have a 
<beholder> wat: .. pluggable FS?
<water> beh: no, you just throw away the bootstrap code once it's done executing and has been totally replaced in function by objects
<water> beh: the question is how to write bootstrap code that simulates lots of objects
<s_r> how does the linker (ld) know to make the virtual address entry for the kernel 0xc-something? Where is that specified?
<water> sr: mman.h? no clue
* s_r/#tunes is looking at LittleOS source code
<beholder> wat:  Couldn't the OS create such a thing? (once running)  The install process would use something generic, and the runtime could produce the better product?  
<water> beh: i don't follow you
<HickServ> no!!!!!!
<HickServ> fuck
<HickServ> i was writing up the paper and then an illegal operation took place :(
<beholder> wat:  I mean the bootstrapper...  could the OS, produce the bootstrap code based on the objects the system uses?  (once installed and running)
<water> beh: sure, but my question was how
<beholder> Hick:  Two Words:  MSOffice Bad...
<s_r> hickserv was screwed by windows again
<beholder> wat:  The objects could be "frozen"  and the code placed in the boot partition
<HickServ> i was typing it up in hotmail
* water/#tunes doesn't get upset, because he uses pirated and free software.
<HickServ> and the window went away :(
06:10pm
<water> beh: hmm. "frozen" doesn't work, because that means it needs other objects
<s_r> water the p1r8te
<beholder> wat: Yes... I guess it would.  I guess a generic bootloader is the only solution?
<s_r> Cap'n Water who sailed the seven seas of warez
<HickServ> p1r8t3
<water> hehe
<water> aaaarrrr, matey!
<beholder> sr:  Water works on a very large boat... so that joke is much more funny than you intended ;)
<water> beh: sort of.
<s_r> what?
<water> beh: of course, i'm thinking about it in tunes terms
<s_r> water works on a boat:?
* water/#tunes works on nuclear reactors in an aircraft carrier
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<water> hey bc
<_BC> Hi all
<beholder> wat:  What about a bootstrapping Arrows, is that possible?  (once a decent system database is created?)
<beholder> hey bc
<_BC> Hi water, how doing?
<water> beh: arrows = tunes in that respect
<_BC> Hi beholder - and the rest
<binEng> water: speaking about your profession, how much info do you get that's supposed to be kept secret?
<water> bc: ok, i'm gonna release a new paper soon
<HickServ> arrow is the closest i think
<_BC> wat: ahh, that's great. I'm interested in seeing it
<water> bin: i can't give you engineering values or materials, but the processes are publically known
<HickServ> in second place comes clementine with retro in a far third :\
<HickServ> when it comes to relation to tunes
<HickServ> retro is nice
<HickServ> brb
<water> bin: it's just a pressurized water reactor system adapted to sea ops.
* _BC/#tunes still pondering what "reflectivity" means to an OS... Water, that paper will explain that?
<water> bc: not in the first paper
<water> bc: probably the third
<binEng> water: on some occasion you were supposed to keep quiet with your location or destination or something...
<beholder> wat:  Is it special water (fresh water vs. sea water or Duterium), that they use in the process?
<water> bin: yes, that's general navy security
<water> beh: just fresh water and some stuff
<water> :)
<_BC> w: oh, so you're writing a series!  sounds good.  Can I assume it will be html-ized for browsers? (both apps, and people)
<water> bc: sure, with plenty of drawings
<beholder> bc:  I agree... no damn PS files ;)
<water> hey!
* water/#tunes happens to like ps
<_BC> koolo
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<water> hi cobol
<Cobol> hello
<binEng> water: k, got much of such info? Just curious :)
<abi> hoy, Cobol
<beholder> help cobol
<Cobol> help how?
* _BC/#tunes likes .PS, except for all the extra space and processing it takes...
<water> bin: what kind of info?
<beholder> cobol: sorry Hello, not help ;)
<Cobol> Ohh, well, a Hello is just as good.
<binEng> water: like... well, I naturally don't know what.
<beholder> cobol:  However if you wish to join a Tunes project, then help it is! ;)
<Cobol> Check the members page, dear friend.
<water> bin: well, let's just talk about the tunes-related stuff then
<binEng> oh well
<water> cobol: who are you?
<Cobol> I just took a 8 or 9 months break for Tannenbaum's book.
06:20pm
<Cobol> I am THE Cobol, also known as Marc Esser.
<beholder> cob:  Sorry never seen you here before, assumed you were new :)
<water> sorry, i don't think we've met
* Cobol/#Tunes shrugs.
<_BC> How was the book, cobol?
* beholder/#tunes wonders if in hell, they'd make you write an os in Cobal...
<Cobol> The book was good.
<water> which book?
<Cobol> Never learned to write in Cobol, I'm a C person myself.
<HickServ> hahaha
<Cobol> O/S: Des. & Imp.
<HickServ> an os in cobol
<HickServ> i saw a book called cobol for the new millenium
<HickServ> what a joke
<_BC> Cobol; was it fairly conventional design concepts, or did it also have some advanced stuff?  perhaps any concepts related to Tunes?
* water/#tunes would like to discuss something more to the point
<Cobol> S/390 mainframe = Y2K bug = money....
<beholder> hick:  Have you even seen that lang?  It's absolutly horrible!  And the programmers are all 90 years old!
<Cobol> _BC: As far as metacode translations and such? No, but we're inventing it as we go along anyways.
<HickServ> i know i know hehehe
<HickServ> cobol isn't a programming language; it's an infection
<Cobol> Tunes is the ultimate AppWizard.
<beholder> wat: Sorry, I didn't mean to stray the topic
<_BC> Neat.  ohwell.  I can't expect a hydrogen powered ferrari performance from a school bus type vehicle.
<Cobol> I'm just hoping that we'll get a language for tunes done in the next three years or so, Tunes needs an ELIZA port.
<water> cobol: have you read my paper?
<Cobol> water: I'm afraid I haven't.
* _BC/#tunes will sit back, seeing what convo happens. Sounded like good discussionwhen i arrived.
<water> cobol: well, it's in nowhere near publishable condition, but i'm about to release the much better replacements
<Cobol> water:.....it might be an idea to know what it's on?
<water> abi: arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<beholder> wat:  What's this doc about?  The idea of an Arrow?
<water> beh: yep. the construct itself
<water> beh: mathematically, philosophically, intuitively
<beholder> wat:  Sounds good, that's the paper I need to read then
<Cobol> I don't see why Tunes must be so complicated. All we need is a thinking computer =) I don'y see a problem with that, do you? ;-)
<water> hehe
<water> tunes won't be that complicated
<water> even in conceptual design
<Cobol> ....compared to the operating system of a submarine, that is...
<water> but the os of a sub = about a hundred minds!
<water> oh, a robot sub
<Cobol> Yes, plus the 20+ million lines of code aboard a Los Angeles class.
<water> don't even mention the new subs
<_BC> How about a information processing (NLP, symbolic, etc) evaluator.  Then have a program develop better and better processes, and apply the evaluator.  Genetic algorithm approach.
06:30pm
<water> bc: that's a strategy
<water> bc: hence, not necessarily adaptible
* _BC/#tunes grins.  No?
<HickServ> cobol: i do ai i love the idea :)))
<Cobol> You know, I think acctually having a programming language would be a start.
<Cobol> But that's just from a normal human beings point of view...
<water> f*** programming languages
<_BC> heheh
<HickServ> water you're so silly
<water> programming languages are exactly what tunes doesn't need
<Cobol> Also, I think Tunes should act Existentialistic.
<Cobol> And also, it should be on anti-depressants.
<water> ok, i'm ignoring cobol
<_BC> lol
<_BC> uhm, and what does that mean, cobo?
<_BC> cobol 
<Cobol> Well, if one designs a systems to work *with* human beings, it should really have human flaws, too ;-)
* water/#tunes ignores the channel
<Cobol> Like maybe being a kleptomaniac, or something.
<_BC> oboi.. well, i don't know if i want my pooter having fits.  I get enough fits from my GF as it is.. <G>
<Cobol> Well, your GF won't randomly steal files off your hard-drive...
<HickServ> mine will
<HickServ> if i had one
<_BC> ohdear
<Cobol> Uhmm, well, there's a good comparison.
<_BC> <ahem>  well, how about I ask about Functional programming?
<HickServ> booo
<Cobol> How can your GF steal files off your hard-drive, when you don't have one. AKA: How can you program an O/S without a programming language?
<Cobol> Functional programming, yay!
<HickServ> uh
<Cobol> =)
<HickServ> i don't even really know what gf stands for
<HickServ> hehhee
<Cobol> Gf = girlfriend
<HickServ> that's what i thought
<Cobol> does that put light on things?
<HickServ> that's why i said i don't have one :)
<_BC> light "easy" or light "haha" ?
<HickServ> and that bitch is always stealing my files
<Cobol> When at first you don't succeed, cover up any trace that you ever tried.
<HickServ> :(
<Cobol> But anyways, somebody said something about functional programming....?
<HickServ> IIIIIB -- -- - -- ():
<_BC> Which is better (if any!);  Hackell, Standard ML, Scheme, or something different?
<Cobol> hummm.....let's see.....
* Cobol/#Tunes puts in a vote for Shell Scripts.
<_BC> water, do you have an opinioin?
<Cobol> I thought he was ignorning the channel...?
<_BC> opinion even
06:40pm
<beholder> Python is interesting
<_BC> yes, I like what i know of python so far.
<Cobol> A side question, does anyone know a good source for O/S design info on the web? Because generally, those people just kinda suck.
<HickServ> i like lengua
<HickServ> but that's my opinion
<_BC> what's that HS?
<HickServ> uh
<HickServ> vaporware
<_BC> ok
<_BC> what do you term "good", cobol?
<HickServ> cobol hehehe
<HickServ> cobol has bad taste as it is
<Cobol> _BC: Well, ok, let's see. err, a lot of people devote a lot of time to garbage like writing assembler code,
<HickServ> :|
<Cobol> when we all know there should be a few million lines of a really high level language on top,
<Cobol> that does absolutley nothing (Like NT), but is there anyways.
<Cobol> That's good.
<Cobol> And it's absolutley nesc., too!
<HickServ> asm is very good
<HickServ> pure asm isn't all the time but asm is very good
<HickServ> but don't think that asm is bad
* water/#tunes decides to leave before this crap makes him sick.
<_BC> an exokernel idea is interenting
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<Cobol> I'm a big fan of writing OS's on top of OS's. And no, ASM isn't bad, but it's over-exposed.
<Cobol> I want more data on process management, and other things.
<_BC> water
<HickServ> cobol: canyou say slow?
<Cobol> HS, can you say 1ghz CPU's not far away?
<HickServ> cobol: the more performance the better; a couple years ago no one thought they'd be able to use up 1 meg of memory but our needs are always more;  we can't even begin to emulate a human brain on 1 ghz
<beholder> Cobol:  The idea is not to let the OS need so much procesing power to run.  
* Cobol/#Tunes feels the need to challenge every bit of common knowledge regarding O/S design.
<HickServ> well throw a little logic into there sometime okay? :P
<Cobol> BTW, here's brain-food for ya: Distributed Tunes
<_BC> Are there any other programming (os related?) #channels anyone knows about?
<Cobol> O/S stuff isn't so much on IRC, but more on Usenet.
<HickServ> go to #os on efnet
06:50pm
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<HickServ> write it in cobol
<Cobol> Cobol my a**.
<HickServ> hahaha
<HickServ> how ironic
<Cobol> I got this name because I resemble the language.
<Cobol> Totally useless, obfuscated, and f*cked up.
<HickServ> i see
<HickServ> carry on then
* Cobol/#Tunes nods.
* Cobol/#Tunes is trying to decide what to major in.
<HickServ> cs
<Cobol> Well, that's my minor.
<Cobol> It's either theoretical or applied math.
<HickServ> major in cs and minor in math
<Cobol> Now, the thing is, if I major in theo math, I'll impress people, but it's pretty useless.
<Cobol> But applied is acctually usefull.
<Cobol> That too, maybe.
<Cobol> Or I might be a tad insane and doble-major (yeah...right...)
<HickServ> because you have the knowledge with the math but the pretige of cs
<HickServ> prestige
<Cobol> Well, I still have two years to decide. I'm staring 11th grade in two months, I'm ok.
<HickServ> oic
<HickServ> whatever
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07:00pm
<HickServ> i must go
<HickServ> later guys
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:|)
<Cobol> same here.
-:- SignOff Cobol: #TUNES (Leaving)
<beholder> hey root
<root> um............
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<beholder> hey root AKA iepos
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<beholder> hey eStormy
<iepos> beholder, whatever ... :~$
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<binEng> wb water
<water> hm sure
<beholder> wb wat... 
<water> what's the topic now?
<beholder> wat:  Nothing at the moment
<water> much better, then
<beholder> wat: Anything in particular you'd like to discuss?
* water/#tunes browses the logs
<water> wow. i didn't miss a damned thing
<beholder> wat: Nope, the conversation wen't stupid 
07:10pm
<water> beh: anything you'd like to discuss?
<water> well?
<beholder> wat: We're working on the mechanics for the RPG system, any ideas?
<water> oh
<water> plenty
<water> what do you want to hear?
* beholder/#tunes will reply in a second, checking out the firefly's in the back yard
<binEng> water: as the lowest layer, you'd use Arrows, right?
<water> "lowest"? maybe
<water> yes, i guess so
<water> i would want semantics as complete as my goal for the arrow system
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<water> hi, mie
<beholder> bin:  Actually, I was thinking about the game mechanics like what IS the character, what is it composed of, etc.  I have some ideas, just looking for others to comment
<binEng> would everything use that abstraction? or would you define more specialized and restrictive sub-languages?
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07:20pm
<beholder> hey hcf
<water> hi hcf
07:30pm
<s_r> water: working on arrows?
<water> yeah
<s_r> hmmm abstract arrows
<s_r> do you know anything about combinatory logic?
<water> a little
07:40pm
<s_r> brix?
<abi> rumour has it brix is qz's OS, http://www.qzx.com/brix, <Fare> who cares about BRiX? It's evil proprietary software! or mormonic or canelled and the source rm'd
<s_r> brix?
<abi> it has been said that brix is qz's OS, http://www.qzx.com/brix, <Fare> who cares about BRiX? It's evil proprietary software! or mormonic or canelled and the source rm'd
08:10pm
<iepos> combinators are the bomb. 8)
<water> they only go so far
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> off to pizza!
08:20pm
<water> ontology?
<abi> somebody said ontology was a statement of a logical theory in some domain or what a person believes to be provable. i.e. what _can_ possibly be done in the world
<s_r> ontologyOS
<water> shut up
08:30pm
<binEng> <-- Leaving
-:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (zzzz)
<iepos> wouldn't you rather have combinators than bound variables?
<iepos> you mentioned you planned on using arrows to represent lambdas... but lambdas are no fun. 8(
<water> bound variables suck i agree
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<water> but lambdas don't really need bound variables
<iepos> well, combinators are a nice way of expressing quantified statements and sets and other things...
<water> (don't tell Fare, he might go nuts)
<water> they're nice, yes, but limited
<iepos> ummm... well... what is a lambda without bound variables then?
<water> hehe
<water> lambda! :)
08:40pm
<water> lambda really doesn't have variables
<water> people just use 'em because they like 'em
<iepos> okay then, how can you _apply_ a lambda without bound variables.
<AlonzoTG> name for my OS: SPHERE!
<water> iepos: well, you have to abandon the text-model
<iepos> yeah... you plan on treating the lambda as a first-order thing, not necessarily needing to be combined textually with a parameter-name and "return value" (for lack of better name... can't think of).
<beholder> bye all
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<water> wb hcf
<water> category theory does it, and so does arrow
<water> there are also equivalents of lambda in other formal systems
<iepos> i think you are using bound variables and don't realize it
<hcf> water: as u notice, i posted some urls to the rev mlist, they may apply to ur interests
<water> hahaha
<water> hcf: most don't, sorry
<hcf> np
<water> i fully understand the notions of "bound variables", thank you. a virtual machine with a stack
<water> fully encapsulates the idea.
<iepos> yup
<iepos> that's one way at least...
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<water> hm
<water> wb hs
<HickServ> my brother is critisizing Lengua :(
08:50pm
<water> Lengua?
<abi> rumour has it Lengua is the best
<water> hehe
<iepos> water, are you using "lambda x y" to mean the real abstraction of concept 'x' from 'y', then... not just text... ?
<water> the rumour is wrong
<HickServ> should the programmer be able to declare bcd data do you think?
<water> hs: i don't care about programmers
<HickServ> :(
<water> hs: they're too narrow minded
<water> iepos: "real abstraction"?
<iepos> heh heh... nevermind... i don't care about lambda
<water> ok
<iepos> i don't understand what you mean by non-textual lambda
<HickServ> what does the lambda keyword do in lisp?
<iepos> and i don't know what i mean by real abstraction
<water> ok
<iepos> :-)
<water> hs: it makes a lambda-defined function
<HickServ> oic
<iepos> bye bye... got to go. nice talking to you, water... (:-))
-:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> ok
<HickServ> nice little boy/girl he/she is
<water> huh?
<HickServ> nothing
09:00pm
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<s_r> water do you know how FreeBSD works?
<water> umm. like any other bsd unix?
<s_r> do you know where i can find answers to my questions about BSD internals?
<water> there're a few books on it, but i'd bet that their web site has pointers on it
<water> i'm sure usenet has something, too
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09:10pm
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<water> wb
<HickServ> hi fare
<HickServ> this paper is taking a long time to write
<water> hehe
<water> don't talk to me about papers
<HickServ> i wish i could just jump into coding
09:20pm
<water> would that my efforts were so simple
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> oh my
09:30pm
<water> ?
<HickServ> in my paper i put an example of what some Lengua code might look like and it makes my heart sing
<HickServ> it's so purty :D
<water> hehe
<water> what's it say?
<HickServ> lemme show you
<HickServ> mov (add $ax [height]) 10;
<HickServ> that's low level lengua code
<water> yuck
<HickServ> the low level portion is very related to asm
* HickServ/#tunes hits water
<water> no kidding
<HickServ> quiet boy
<water> and the high-level?
<HickServ> i haven't defined enought of that yet
<water> great, so you've defined something that is syntactically indentical to machine-specific assembly
<water> :P
<HickServ> no
<HickServ> dumbass you don't even understand the language yet
<water> yes, mov's are machine-specific
<HickServ> it blend high and low level code
<HickServ> blends
<hcf> like terse
<HickServ> that's just a low level part
<water> and it's machine-specific
<HickServ> it's in two modules
<HickServ> hi level and low level
<water> oh, modules
<water> what?
<HickServ> you just have to create a new low level module
<water> that's not a module, that's a compiler stage
<HickServ> and in most other architectures (risc) it's easy
<water> same thing, new word
<water> yeah, as easy as writing a back-end for a compiler, right?
<HickServ> hehehe yep
<water> this is too easy! :)
<HickServ> you catch on quick
<water> yeah, your ideas are un-original
<HickServ> huh?
<HickServ> how so?
<water> and you mis-apply the word "module"
<HickServ> sorry 
<HickServ> i'll use your fancy shmancy words
<water> re-usable compiler stages are widely used
<HickServ> well that is compiler specific not language specific
<water> hehe
<water> so, what's your compiler stage interface?
<HickServ> boy i oughta give you a whippen you've never had before
<water> is it low-level?
<HickServ> im not into those specifics yet
<water> you obviously haven't looked closely at compiler architecture
<HickServ> like i said im working out the details of the language not the compiler
<HickServ> the compiler comes next
<water> but you're already defining compiler stage syntax
<HickServ> er
<HickServ> that was just an idea damnit
<water> n/m
<water> you continue to re-invent wheels
<water> i'll ignore the channel some more
09:40pm
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<HickServ> >=(
<HickServ> what is terse?
<HickServ> terse?
<hcf> HickServ: see the asm faq
<hcf> actually, see www.terse.com
<HickServ> i gotta go
<HickServ> i got more ideas up my sleve though
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09:50pm
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<HickServ> y0
<HickServ> anyone around?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes HickServ with an Iron Butterfly
<HickServ> hi alonzo
<HickServ> water and my brother are critisizing my programming language in a bad way
<HickServ> :(((
10:30pm
<AlonzoTG> wussup?
<AlonzoTG> whats rong wid yer lango?
<AlonzoTG> lemme seee it.
<HickServ> well im writing up the paper right now for it
<HickServ> and only s_r will see my first draft (i don't write to well and he's helping me)
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<HickServ> hi qz
<HickServ> traitor :P
<_QZ> what?
<HickServ> nothing :D
<_QZ> if u were offered a 6 figure salary and nice stock options u too would do it
<HickServ> yeah i guess i would
<HickServ> i'd rather work for netscape though
<HickServ> even if it were less salary
10:40pm
<_QZ> sometimes u can make more change working with the enemy than against
<_QZ> hey do u have starcraft?
<HickServ> no 
<HickServ> why?
<_QZ> u need to get it
<HickServ> no i don't
<HickServ> age of empires is the best real time sim
<HickServ> and don't you forget it
<_QZ> heh
<HickServ> damnit my dad wants me to go to bed by midnight
<HickServ> that sucks
<HickServ> it's summer
<_QZ> hah
<HickServ> it should be against the law
<hcf> HickServ: get your gun, and say no dad
<_QZ> hahahah
<AlonzoTG> om
<HickServ> no i treat guns with respect
<HickServ> hcf: thats no laughing matter (hehehe)
<_QZ> he didnt say u had to dis the gun
<HickServ> heh
<_QZ> just point and say no
* HickServ/#tunes slaps _QZ around a bit with a large trout
10:50pm
<_QZ> well im off to bed
<_QZ> cya
-:- SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
11:00pm
<HickServ> yay
<HickServ> im getting closer to finishing this up
<AlonzoTG> om
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-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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11:10pm
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<billyboof> hello
11:30pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0625
IRC log ended Fri Jun 25 00:00:01 1999