IRC log started Wed Jun 16 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0616
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!huxley.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT jordan.openprojects.net 8004 from ^lilo
!brin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT jordan.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo
!brin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT jordan.openprojects.net 8005 from ^lilo
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<AlonzoTG> on the water...
<AlonzoTG> =P
06:10am
<smoke_> :)
06:20am
-:- HickServ [thrustit@209-68-229-48.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<HickServ> hi
<abi> salut, HickServ
<HickServ> anyone awake?
06:40am
<AlonzoTG> om
<HickServ> hi al
<HickServ> what's up?
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> I need $120 of books.
<HickServ> just ask intel for christmas and you shall get stuff for free :)
<AlonzoTG> yep I have those
<HickServ> how many though?
<AlonzoTG> I just need stuff on LiNuKs, multithreading and Information Theorie.
<HickServ> i got the three software developer manuals and tommorow im getting the fpu manual, the code optimisation manual, the system software writers guide for the 386 and the hardware manual for the 386
<HickServ> :)))
<HickServ> but tommorrow im going to Louisiana and i can't read them
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> hmmz.
<AlonzoTG> I'm wondering how to port my OS to that new FPGA machine...
<AlonzoTG> =P
<HickServ> fpga?
<abi> fpga are not *that* good
<HickServ> beos?
<abi> rumour has it beos is nice
<AlonzoTG> www.starbridgesystems.com
<HickServ> oh that's good abi
<HickServ> beos: also is not as good as BRiX :P
<HickServ> abi: beos also is not as good as BRiX :P
<HickServ> abi: beos is also not as good as BRiX :P
<abi> okay, HickServ.
<HickServ> that bot is stubborn
<HickServ> abi: abi is also stubborn
<abi> okay, HickServ.
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<HickServ> guess what al
<AlonzoTG> wut?
<HickServ> im graduating from junior high today :P
<AlonzoTG> hehhehehehe
<AlonzoTG> study diskreet math...
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> then information theory..
<HickServ> i alreay have
<AlonzoTG> and softwarez engineering...
<AlonzoTG> oh yeah...
06:50am
<AlonzoTG> you're 1337 now!!!
<HickServ> well discreate math that is
<HickServ> im learning more still
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is off to klass...
<HickServ> is beos expensive?
<HickServ> god how can VI crash my computer
<HickServ> k i gotta go to school
<HickServ> bye alonzo
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07:00am
<s_r> virix?
<abi> it has been said that virix is a new OS that will become YAOS :) (i hope not)
07:20am
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<Fare> hum
<s_r> fare have you written any papers lately?
<s_r> ideas...
<s_r> lamdba
<s_r> lambda lambda lambda
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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10:30am
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<HickServ> hi
<abi> hoy, HickServ
<Fare> lo
<HickServ> tonight i have my promotion ceremony
<HickServ> they make such a big deal about going into high school
<HickServ> Fare how can a language or compiler be rebuilt?
01:20pm
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<_BC> Hello
<HickServ> hi
* AlonzoTG/#tunes smashes _BC with an iron mace
* _BC/#tunes ouch!  Hey what was that fo?
<_BC> Hi H.S.
<_BC> Hi AlonzoTG
<AlonzoTG> bc u eggzist
<_BC> yes?  (what do you talking about?)
<_BC> what alonzo
<abi> it has been said that alonzo is HickServ's sicilian mafia under boss
01:50pm
<_BC> no abi
<_BC> is alonzo jus being friendly, or are you talking about something specific?
<_BC> hello?
<_BC> anyway, i was looking for an enlighten opinion..?
<_BC> AlonzoTG ?
<abi> i guess AlonzoTG is annoying with his greetings messages or probably a bot
<_BC> hey HickServ ?
>>> _BC [bmcbrine@pine.Alberni.Net] requested PING 929564925 from #tunes
<_BC> hello.....
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<_BC> hi smoke
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<_BC> helo?
<smoke> hi bc
<_BC> hi smoke
02:00pm
<_BC> i was wondering how invisible i was, but a bit..
<_BC> for a bit...
<smoke> :)
<_BC> i'm was looking for a programmers opinion... do you have much experience programming interrupts?
<_BC> hm????
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<smoke> not me. i hooked some routines to interrupts in ms-dos, but i've never done real os code
02:10pm
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<s_r> hi
<s_r> anyone not idling here?
<HickServ> hi s_r
<HickServ> i sent you another email
<s_r> /join #Lengua
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<water> hi all
<s_r> water you are the terror of the tao
<water> huh?
<water> abi: me?
<abi> you are an expression of the Tao
<water> ok
<smoke> anyone here with an opinion on the language Dylan ?
<water> it's a pretty good oo design
<smoke> are there any 'realworld' applications written in Dylan ?
<s_r> Dylan is a teaching language
<water> i don't know. check out their web site
<smoke> s_r: it was not developed as a teaching language afaik
<AlonzoTG> om
<s_r> abi: afaik?
<abi> s_r: wish i knew
<smoke> as far as i know
<smoke> abi: as far as i know
<smoke> hm. guess he doesn't learn that, does he ?
!koontz.openprojects.net!! Received :varley.openprojects.net SERVER asimov.openprojects.net from sterling.openprojects.net !?!
<s_r> she
<smoke> grin
02:20pm
<s_r> abi: smoke is a sexist
<s_r> ;)
<smoke> damn i'm screwed :)
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02:30pm
<HickServ> take away take away
<HickServ> take away this ball and chain
<HickServ> take away take away
<HickServ> take away this ball and chain
* HickServ/#tunes likes singing in channels
02:50pm
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<s_r> Fare write a paper for us
<s_r> for Lengua
<s_r> you're good at that aren't you?
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<Fare> s_r: I don't know "lengua"
<s_r> :)
<Fare> lengua?
<abi> lengua is the best!!!
<HickServ> it's our language we are developing
<s_r> fare: it is a project of Bueno Labs
<s_r> Bueno Labs (c) 1999
<HickServ> i don't want Fare poluting the project tough ;)
<s_r> hahaha
<HickServ> "oo is gay"
<s_r> http://www.bueno-labs.com/lengua
<s_r> (soon)
<HickServ> hehehe
<HickServ> don't be bragging too much s_r
<hcf> s_r: promoting vapor i see
* Fare/#Tunes just updated eforth 1.0 to work in ELF
<Fare> OO must be preceded by cr and followed by k.
<HickServ> heh
<HickServ> you
<HickServ> 're silly
<HickServ> i gotta take a shower and go to my ceremony
<Fare> ceremony rhymes with alemony.
<HickServ> oh and s_r i'm gonna be gone for a week starting tommorow
<HickServ> i gotta go to louisiana
<HickServ> so don't expect any email responses from me for a week
03:10pm
<HickServ> later guys
<Fare> bye!
-:- SignOff HickServ: #TUNES (:))
<s_r> hehe
<s_r> hcf everybody loves vapourware
<Fare> you forgot "and his grandma":
<Fare> "everybody and his grandma loves vapourware"
03:20pm
<s_r> fare does HS hate OO?
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<Fare> ask him
<Fare> OO is to be despised, not hated
03:30pm
* binEng/#tunes wonders, yes really, what is wrong with OO
<s_r> fare: explain why OO is despised
<binEng> or rather, why it _deserves_ to be despised. What is inheritly wrong with it?
<Fare> s_r: it is despicable, but not as despised as should
<Fare> I guess one of my next papers will be that famous anti-OO FAQ...
<binEng> Yes, I sense OO warshipping too, but I can't put my finger on what is exaggerated.
<s_r> fare do you mean the OO in C++ or real OO
03:40pm
<s_r> which are you talking about?
<binEng> As I myself rely heavily on OO in my design, I'm quite eager to get to know the truth.
<binEng> Another thing that I need to unravel the mysterous downsides with is the tree structure, which I also depend on now.
<Fare> s_r: whatever people call "OO"
<Fare> although sure some people hype more than others.
<s_r> isn't tunes going to be OO>?
<Fare> certainly not
<Fare> and it won't be "multimedia", or "Y2K-ready" or any other crap
<s_r> but not OO as it is hyped or anything
<s_r> but objects
<s_r> every item of the OS is an object
<Fare> sure
<Fare> that doesn't make the system "OO"
<s_r> and objects can have inheritance
<s_r> and such
<s_r> operations on objectws
<Fare> or else, lambda-calculus is OO because every thing in it is an "object"
03:50pm
-:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (.)
<binEng> I'd like to turn the subject from buzzwords to what's wrong with OO and trees
<Fare> uh? something is wrong with trees?
<binEng> somebody said.
<binEng> I have the creeping feeling trees are not the best way of structuring everything. I'd like to discover what bug is creeping on me ;)
<Fare> rather, something is wrong with trying to force every structure into an inheritance tree
<Fare> like round holes and square pegs...
<binEng> that's right, complete inheritance would be a stupid thing to try. But I did not have that in mind for my model.
<Fare> also, in a global system, having a global inheritance tree to modify would be real stupid
<Fare> we need modularity, not inheritance. Inheritance is anti-modular
<hcf> Fare: anything wrong w/ delegation?
<Fare> delegation is good
<Fare> quite good, even
<binEng> Actually, my brainchild mOS doesn't make use of inheritance at all.
<Fare> abi: delegation?
<abi> i heard delegation was good
<binEng> Hmm... doesn't delegation cause hierarchies?
<Fare> yes, but they decouple extension and fixpointing
<binEng> sorry?
<Fare> the whole evil of inheritance is that it specifies both extension and fixpointing at the same time
04:00pm
<binEng> I think I don't get the meaning of neither 'extension' or 'fixpointing' in this context.
<Fare> have you ever considered typing of OO systems?
<Fare> (and typing is *the* way to understand the meaning of software)
<binEng> I intend to read TOO RSN.
<binEng> I've bought it and everything :)
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<binEng> greets Brian
<water> hi
<abi> niihau, water
<hcf> TOO?
<abi> no idea, hcf
<smoke> typing ?
<binEng> TOO?
<abi> hmmm... TOO is the book 'A Theory Of Objects' by Abadi Cardelli
<water> hcf: where?
<hcf> abi: too is also at 
<abi> okay, hcf.
<hcf> damnit
<water> hehe
<hcf> abi: no, TOO is the book 'A Theory Of Objects' by Abadi Cardelli at http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Martin_Abadi/Luca_Cardelli_Copy/TheoryOfObjects.html
<abi> okay, hcf.
<binEng> uh, whadda url :p
<hcf> ppl: check out http://progwww.vub.ac.be/prog/research/formal-oo.html
<water> yeah, and it's not on-line, either
<water> :(
<Fare> water!
<water> hi fare
<water> what's the good word?
<Fare> hcf: that's Martin Abadi & Luca Cardelli,
<Fare> not someone named Abadi Cardelli
04:10pm
<binEng> hrm
<Fare> good word?
<water> yeah, what's up?
<Fare> abi: what's up?
<abi> somebody said up was the opposite of down
<hcf> Fare: binEng put that name in there
<binEng> abi: no, TOO is the book 'A Theory Of Objects' by Martin Abadi & Luca Cardelli at http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Martin_Abadi/Luca_Cardelli_Copy/TheoryOfObjects.html
<abi> okay, binEng.
<Fare> hum. Time to go to bed. LinuxExpo is in Paris tomorrow (err... today)
<Fare> bye!
<binEng> cya
* Fare/#Tunes is away
<water> darn
<binEng> Luca Cardelli?
<abi> well, Luca Cardelli is co-author of TOO and at http://www.luca.demon.co.uk/
<binEng> is that ok?
* hcf/#tunes is away.
<binEng> hey, don't everyone go away now!
<water> who's left?
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<water> who's left?
<binEng_> me, maybe
<water> hmm
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<water> ok. this is pointless
<water> bye bin
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<binEng> blää
04:20pm
* hcf/#tunes is back
<hcf> anyone left alive?
<binEng> I am.
<binEng> as always
<hcf> check out http://progwww.vub.ac.be/prog/research/formal-oo.html
<binEng> I had a quick look at it... what useful stuff is there, really?
<hcf> k, nm
04:40pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<binEng> I'm outta here.
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04:50pm
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<_QZ> ugh any1 wanna telnet into p0wer and fix it? :)
<_QZ> any1 know howto disable gdm, while its failing?
06:20pm
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<_QZ> 
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07:10pm
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<_BC> hello
<water> hi bc
<_BC> hi water
<_BC> how is water
<water> ok
<water> i'm going to write up a paper
<_BC> what about?
<water> "towards a formal philosophy for tunes"
<water> relativism
<water> also, i'm going to write a separate ontology paper
<_BC> that sounds good.  i'd like to see that when it's done.
<water> the idea is to modulariz my arrows' work
<water> and formalize it better
<water> i've been doing a lot of thinking about this stuff
<_BC> i haven't read the arrows paper.  how is it for reading?
<water> it's pretty rough
<water> theoretical, but my terms are non-standard
<water> and long
<_BC> well cheers to writing a better one
<water> thanks
09:50pm
<_BC> do you program too?   i had a interrupt question.
<water> yes, but i haven't programmed low-level for a while. i mostly just read papers about stuff lately
<_BC> perhaps more an opinion.  someone that knows the PC innerds better than me
<water> ok. ask away then
<_BC> i am starting to look into implimenting my os (an rtos of sorts) in code.  i wanted to hear if
<_BC> the inner loop tick should be tied to the PIT timer, or the RTC interrupt.  or does it make any difference?
<water> sorry, don't know
<_BC> k
<water> i never got into that
<_QZ> do either of u know anything about gdm?
<_BC> nope, sorry qz
<_BC> i need a good memory map/memory layout of the pc innerds.  anyone know one?
<_QZ> for what?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-136.tscnet.net])
<_BC> for coding my os code.
<_BC> relavent portions of 0-1M
* _BC/#tunes any other relavent portions too
<_QZ> u get to make up yer own map
<_BC> true. but what about pre-PM?
10:00pm
<_QZ> well yer boot loader is loaded to 7c00h
<_QZ> so the 512 byte block there is taken
<_QZ> the bios data area is at 400h
<_QZ> and the ivt is at 0
<_QZ> 0-3ffh
<_QZ> i dont use the bios data area in brix and the ivt is replaced with the idt right before i go into pmode
<_BC> so is that it for the low memory parts?  (biosdata<--??-->bootloader ?)
<_QZ> well dont erase the bios data area until u no longer need any bios calls
<_QZ> nothing is between them
<_QZ> nothing is above the bootloader
<_QZ> a0000h-1meg is hardware memory
<_QZ> and bios rom
<_QZ> u will need to know what is in there when u start writing yer drivers
<_BC> thanks.  that makes it look almost simple. :)
<_BC> i will probably want a call-gate for some bios.? you think?
<_BC> i'll find out i guess.
<_QZ> no
<_QZ> u cant call the bios while in pmode
<_QZ> u have to call a wrapper that changes to rmode, makes the bios call and then changes back to pmode. real slow and unsafe
<_BC> right. but one can setup a realmode segment for calling bios.
<_BC> slow AND unsafe you say.  well, this might not be a Good Thing(TM)
10:10pm
<_QZ> there are some 32bit bios routines. u can make calls to them while in pmode
<_BC> how do i find out which ones i can use?
<_QZ> get a bios manual
<_BC> k
<_BC> thanks qz. i'm gunna try and get a lil sleep. haven't had much lately.
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<_QZ> water: do u know what a dotclock is?
<water> hmm?
<water> no, can't say that i've heard the term before
<water> though i might know it anyway by a different name
<_QZ> its on the xfree86 modeline
<_QZ> for monitors
<water> sorry, no
<water> no xf86 programming for me, thanks
<_QZ> xf86 is running my monitor at 60hz
<_QZ> really sucks
10:20pm
<_QZ> do u know anything about gdm?
<_QZ> or xd,
<_QZ> xdm
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10:30pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0617
IRC log ended Thu Jun 17 00:00:01 1999