IRC log started Sat Jun 12 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0612
12:10am
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<Fare> iepos!
05:50am
<Fare> abi: new?
<abi> rumour has it new is failing at ftp://ftp.gte.com/pub/m3/notes/When-NEW-fails.txt
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<Fare> imaginator?
<iepos> oh, hello fare!
<Fare> iepos: ole
<iepos> hmm... do you know much about predicate logic?
<Fare> hum, seeing this "new" topic, it's yet another reason to have multiple memory spaces
<Fare> and use preallocation from a main pool
<Fare> iepos: if I become a varsity teacher, I guess what I'd teach would be logic...
<Fare> although I'm not up to par with realpecialists
<iepos> hmmm... well i'm trying to come up with a decent logic system that allows quantifiers but doesn't use free variables (combinators instead)...
<iepos> has someone already done this?
<Fare> iepos: do you know that Curry already did it with illative combinatory logic?
<iepos> i need to get his book!
<Fare> but he hasn't pushed it far enough, and I know of no other attempt
<Fare> besides, it's quite isomorphic to what you get with, say, a lambda-calculus
<iepos> i'm somewhat puzzled by the "generalization" inference rule in most systems...
06:00am
<iepos> it seems to use long-term bound variables...
<Fare> consider it as a meta-theorem on the structure of universal theorems
<iepos> not sure how to get rid of them...
<Fare> you get rid of them with real ugly "long-term" combinators
<iepos> is there a nice set of normal axioms that can replace the generalization rule?
<iepos> heh heh...
<iepos> is that what curry did, then?
<Fare> there's the combinator \Pi , for instance, such that \Pi (\lambda x . E) == \forall x . E
<iepos> oh yeah... i've been using that all along sort of ...
<Fare> well, do get that Curry book
<iepos> it's out of print......
<Fare> also, do contact logicians around the world about that
<Fare> and do tell me about your progress
<Fare> I mean, there are researchers around the world who might know
<iepos> you mean about replacing the generalization rule?
<Fare> you did grok lambdaND, didn't you?
<iepos> grok?
<Fare> oh, I think the gen rule is no problem
<Fare> it's kind of an associativity rule for \Pi and other combinators
<iepos> hmm... well i'm going to have to find that book somewhere...
<Fare> wait... we have Gamma,x |- E ===> Gamma |- forall x . E ; isn't it?
<iepos> what is "|-" ?
<Fare> it's entailment of a predicate from a given environment
<Fare> (or theory)
<iepos> entailment?
<Fare> oh my! haven't you ever seen those typing rules? or those deduction rules?
<iepos> hmmm... typing rules, not really...
<iepos> never seen entailment anywhere, at least :-)
<iepos> is it kind of like lambda abstraction?
<Fare> I'm sooo sorry I didn't write down the articles from which I learnt, as I did :( :( :(
<Fare> iepos: I'm sorry, I gotta go to the hair cutter. You need read books or articles on formal logic.
<iepos> okay, bye bye....
<Fare> Ones that tackle lambda-calculus and the Curry-Howard isomorphism
<iepos> yeah, that'd be nice.
<Fare> did you read the material by the Coq team? (not just the Coq docs)?
<iepos> maybe i'll find "combinatory logic" somewhere.
<iepos> i mean "Combinotory Logic"
06:10am
<iepos> sort of... a while back... couldn't understand most of it...
<iepos> i have trouble with ps files :-)
<iepos> ps2ascii makes them hard to understand
<Fare> gv?
<abi> gv is my friend
<iepos> gv
<Fare> apt-get install gv
<iepos> ghostview 
<iepos> ?
<Fare> gv is the successor to ghostview
<iepos> i tried gs... 
<Fare> gs is quite primitive
<Fare> are you running linux?
-:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (Read error to iepos[d3.t1-4.tecinfo.com]: Network is unreachable)
<Fare> if you want to understand combinatory logic, you *must* learn a lot about lambda-calculi, sequent calculi, etc
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06:20am
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* AlonzoTG/#tunes gone to play zsnes
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (gone to play zsnes)
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-:- ^KoRn has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: dirt monkeys??
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-:- Fare has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org/> 
<iepos> fare, are you back?
-:- s_r has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Reflective Computing System (www.tunes.org) || BRiX supercomputing environment (www.qzx.com/brix)
08:00am
<Fare> more or less
<Fare> "supercomputing" :)
<s_r> fare is brix  opensource
<iepos> brix is openbinary.
<iepos> sort of.
<s_r> iepos: i thought it was opensource...
<iepos> well, he hasn't released the source code (that i know of).
<iepos> hey fare, is there a way to use your keyboard for a pointer in xwindows instead of a mouse?
<Fare> s_r: you <think>?
<s_r> xkeypointer
<s_r> ;)
<Fare> iepos: I can move the pointer with the keyboard, but I dunno how to click with the keyboard
<iepos> hahaha
<iepos> is it xkeypointer then? where do you get it?
<iepos> it doesn't come with my slackware :-)
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<Fare> I never heard about such a beast; neither has dpkg
<s_rr> i was kidding ;P
<iepos> :~(
<Fare> what happened to your nose !?!?!?
<iepos> hahaha
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<s_r> iepos: code one
<Fare> the problem is to prevent the app to process the keys used to move the pointer...
08:10am
<iepos> fare, do you know anywhere i could find curry's Combinatory Logic book?  ( :-) )
<s_r> abi: ontology?
<abi> i heard ontology was a statement of a logical theory in some domain
08:20am
* iepos/#TUNES wishes he could find a copy of Curry's "Combinatory Logic"
<s_r> abi: where can iepos get Curry's "Combinatory Logic"?
<abi> s_r: i don't know
<iepos> :~(
<s_r> iepos why do you need it?
<iepos> so i can learn more about combinatory logic.
<iepos> too bad it's out of print...
<iepos> no one's interested in combinatory logic these days it seems...
<s_r> I want an out of print book too
<s_r> Richard A. Burgess' "Creating your own 32-bit OS"
<s_r> have you heard about it?
<iepos> nope...
<s_r> iepos are you interested in OS development?
<iepos> yeah... i once tinkered with my own toy OS awhile ago...
<s_r> can i see the source code?
<iepos> hmm......... i'm not sure i have it anymore...let me see....
<iepos> oh i do...
<iepos> but it doesn't do much...
<iepos> not really an OS at all...
<iepos> it just boots up, goes into protected
<iepos> -mode
<iepos> and reads some sectors from the hard drive
08:40am
<s_r> heh
<s_r> well at least it's better than TUENS
<s_r> TUNES
<iepos> well... it does demonstrate how to read from IDE disks...
<iepos> without using the BIOS (yuck).
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<iepos> s_r: do you still want the source?
<s_r> sure
<iepos> all right...
<iepos> i'm not sure it works though...
<iepos> hmm... how do you send files with irc?
<iepos> nevermind, i'll just ftp it to tunes.org
<s_r> /dcc send nick filename
<iepos> all right... you can get it at www.tunes.org/~iepos/old-thing.tar.gz
<iepos> be careful running make though
<iepos> it will basically tear up your hda7 partition
<s_r> huh?
<iepos> you might want to change it if you want to write it somewhere else
<iepos> or maybe you'd rather run it through bochs :-)
<iepos> or some other emulator
<iepos> whatever... maybe you'd just rather not mess with it at all :-)
08:50am
<iepos> well... i gotta go
-:- SignOff iepos: #TUNES (iepos)
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<s_r> hi Fare
<s_r> what's up?
<Fare> I only know what's down
<Fare> s_r: read my latest paper?
<s_r> no
09:00am
<Fare> lucky you
09:10am
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<Fare> WA-TER!
<s_r> water?
<abi> it has been said that water is an expression of the Tao
<water> hi fare
<Fare> (in french, water is a short term for Water Closet, aka toilets)
<water> fare: want to talk about your papers?
<Fare> sure!
<water> i've been mulling them over, and working on my own papers.
<Fare> (in french, the word pronounced "god" is short for a dildo)
<Fare> ain't french such a beautiful language?
<water> no
<water> :)
* Fare/#Tunes never liked french poetry -- until, being in contact with foreigners, I felt much nearer to the french language
* water/#tunes liked english until he was hired as a translator.
<Fare> translator? from what language to which other language?
<Fare> accurate translation is a *very* difficult job
<water> english to spanish and quetzal
<s_r> babelfish.altavista.digital.com
<Fare> quetzal? you know quetzal?
<water> i used to knwo it
<Fare> "used to know it"???
<Fare> who speaks quetzal, nowadays?
<Fare> minorities in Mejico?
<water> and guatemala, honduras, panama, ...
<Fare> did the Aztecs and Mayas speak quetzal?
<water> the language was close to it, anyway.
<Fare> is it a beautiful language?
<water> most languages are beautiful in various ways.
<Fare> :)
<Fare> not dutch
<water> ok.
<water> i agree about dutch
<s_r> have a discussion about Fare's papers
<water> right
<Fare> left
09:20am
<Fare> hum. Any bad english in them?
<Fare> or is it so good english that it will replace Shakespeare in english classes?
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<water> ok. back.
<water> i've got the modem connection under control, hopefully
<water> what about "liveness"?
<water> to discuss
<Fare> yes, what about it?
<water> not sure.
<water> i think that i just understand your paper too well to have questions.
<water> it's just obvious to me, and good work.
* water/#tunes really needs to learn TeX, so he can write up good math notation.
<water> i can't believe that "implement1" doesn't have a direct ancestor in someone else's research.
<s_r> where can i read these papers of Fare's?
<water> abi Fare?
<Fare> s_r: at home, in a comfy chair
<abi> i think Fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) that may disconnect him anytime
<water> it's in /~fare/tmp/
<Fare> I'm sure implement1 has ancestors. The question is: *where*?
<water> right. i think that i know of a few.
<Fare> Please send bibliographic data for inclusion...
<water> right. i'll look through my own bibs real quick.
09:30am
<Fare> s_r: you can read them on the beach, too
<Fare> or in public means of transportations...
<Fare> but the license forbids you to read it with a finger in the nose.
<water> fare: any suggestions for my paper?
<Fare> if you do so, the warranty is void, and you must return the paper back to me.
<Fare> water: which? the one in Arrows/ ?
<water> well, sure.
<Fare> break it up, if you can
<Fare> in smaller pieces.
<water> yes, i've been considering that.
<Fare> Then, try to reuse existing vocabulary from as many horizons as possible.
<Fare> so that you make allies out of people who already know these vocabularies
<water> ok
* water/#tunes is afraid that the navy is ruining his mind.
<water> this should have already been obvious to me.
<Fare> finally, although I personally like intentional/philosophical stuff myself, you need have solid extensional/formal stuff so as to become credible.
<Fare> after the failure of lambdaND, a prof. told me:
<water> right.  i've been trying to get that, too.
<Fare> "when a french researcher has 3 ideas, he writes a paper; when an american researcher has one idea, he writes three papers."
<water> yes, you've said that before.
<Fare> "if you want your paper published in an american conference, you need not only use the american language, but also the american style; else, they won't be able to understand you, and even with the best intentions, they will reject your paper"
<water> fare: i have this paper about implementing a garbage collection specifier using re-write logics.
<Fare> specifier?
<water> fare: not related to implement1, but interesting
<Fare> water: have a pointer?
<water> just a sec
09:40am
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<water> rice university (cs.rice.edu) the paper is named "fpca95-mth.ps.gz"-"abstract models of memory management"
<water> i don't have the exact url
<water> well, it shouldn't be hard to find, though
<water> i can send it, too
<water> anyway, rewrite logic provides an abstract model for the mechanics of memory management, and particular theories result in particular gc strategies
<Fare> Again Felleisen's PLT department, eh?
<water> yes
<Fare> this guy's too good.
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<Fare> he pays tribute to the fads enough to get the dough, but in his heart he knows and is a nice guy.
<_water> fare: who?
<Fare> Matthias F.
<Fare> a *very* bright guy
<_water> oh
<_water> really?
* _water/#tunes regrets not having applied to rice univ
<Fare> more than that -- and with bright students, too (Krishnamurthy(?), Flanagan, etc)
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<Fare> he is aware of the LAMBDA nature.
<water> lambda nature?
<water> as in?
<Fare> good CS has the LAMBDA nature. Bad CS lacks it.
<Fare> I strive so TUNES have the LAMBDA nature.
<water> oh, i see.
<water> i definitely have the same hopes for arrow.
<Fare> cookies with the LAMBDA nature: http://www.fredbox.com/~james/lambda.txt
<water> though my abilities in cs theory may not be up to the task
09:50am
<water> those cookies are pretty good!
* water/#tunes munches on some cookies.
* water/#tunes puts his cookies away for later.
<Fare> and *of course*, you must know http://www.cs.yale.edu/homes/perlis-alan/quotes.html
<water> i've obviously been downloading too many papers lately.  there's so much good reading for me to do.
<Fare> there's so much bad writing for me to do!
<water> hehe. yes.
<water> as it has been for me
<water> hmm "research directions in rewriting logic" - another good one!
<water> darn it, where's that paper?
10:00am
<Fare>                            Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a feature. 
<Fare>                                                 (Rich Kulawiec) 
* water/#tunes thinks he can use felleisen's expressiveness formalism to say something about complexity in arrow.
<water> hmm
<water> fare, we really need to find out how to help each other's writing.
<water> i think that i can help yours, but am not sure how.
<Fare> I'm not sure either :(
<water> yes, it's a difficult thing to improve one's own writing style.
<Fare> at least, we can highen each other's writings by providing a positively critical readership
<water> mine has certainly degraded since college.
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<water> yes, but the manner of feedback is crucial
<water> hi, bineng
<binEng> hi
* water/#tunes and fare are discussing our writing efforts.
<binEng> Writing what?
<water> for me, formalizing arrow in one or more papers.
10:10am
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<water> wb
<binEng> hrm... disconnected from IRC
<binEng> I wonder why that happens. It only seems to strike on openprojects.
* binEng/#tunes is updating himself on the latest days' net events
<binEng> Don't let my presence silence your discussion...
<water> ok.
<binEng> ;)
<water> we're looking through our bib's right now, anyway
* smkl/#tunes ran SETI@home and aliens cracked his computer with it!!!
<binEng> Who were you discussing with anyway? Nobody else has spoken a word since I came.
<binEng> 'till now.
<binEng> smkl: You should have thought about that before!
* Fare/#Tunes goes buy LinuxPPC for his mom...
<binEng> Hey folks. Why do so many ppl seem so totally devoted to Linux? Is there anything about it I've missed?
<water> it's free
<water> well, it's close, anyway
10:20am
<binEng> "Linux is only free if your time has no value."
<water> well... it's the same for windows
<water> you just aren't prejudiced against it
<binEng> except that win isn't free anyway
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<Fare> hum, what's the paper format for faxes in the US? legal?
* Fare/#Tunes is not prejudiced for linux, but postjudiced for it.
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10:30am
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* water/#tunes curses his modem connector a second time!
<binEng> it's the same for me. Just the same... :p
<water> fare: do you have a url for Univ Tur Machine papers?
10:40am
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<water> hi iepos
<iepos> hi water
* binEng/#tunes greets iepos
<iepos> water, do you have a copy of Curry's "Combinatory Logic"?
<water> i don't think so.
<iepos> oh... hi bineng
<iepos> too bad...
<water> i do have papers on combin logic, though
<iepos> i don't think anyone has a copy anymore...
10:50am
<water> oh
<iepos> :~(
<iepos> i wish it was on the internet somewhere... i wonder who has the copyright now...
<iepos> how do copyrights work in the US after the author dies?
<water> copyrights stay with the publisher
<water> there are time limits on that, however
<iepos> yeah... like 50 years or so? :-)
<water> yeah :(
11:00am
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 12 hrs 7 min 26 secs
<water> hey tril
<binEng> lo tril
11:20am
<Tril> hi..
* water/#tunes saw the news reports on the gas line blast in Tril's town.
<Tril> was it on national news?
<water> it was on CNN
* binEng/#tunes wishes he had CNN
<water> of course, local news had it as well
* Fare/#Tunes is back
* Fare/#Tunes 's ISP was down, again
<water> fare: do you have a url for Univ Tur Machine papers?
<Tril> greets F
<Fare> Tril: "back from the dead", when a gas line blasted in your town... scary!
* water/#tunes and fare were discussing our writing efforts.
<Fare> water: nope. Usual books on computable funtions theory. Maybe on John Tromp's page?
<Tril> more specifically the gas line leaked into the stream, and the stream blasted
<water> fare: where's that?
<water> tril: oh.
<Fare> iepos: copyrights in the US are simple:
<Fare> everytime "Snow White" is gonna become public domain, the copyright law makes copyright duration 50 year longer.
<Tril> retroactively?? I think not.
<iepos> haha
<iepos> how do copyrights in France work?
<Fare> iepos: simple
<Fare> iepos: everytime the US makes copyrights last longer, France does the same
<iepos> haha
<water> all you ever needed to know about copyrights... :)
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<Fare> Tril: if you think it's retroactive, then YOUR lawyers will have to face multitrilliondollar lawyers of the publishing rackets.
11:30am
<Fare> Tril: how many trillion dollars can you spend on lawyers?
<water> fare: ok, i've got his home page.
<Fare> http://www.cwi.nl/~tromp ?
<water> oh, yeah. i've got this guy's papers already!
<Fare> don't they point to something about universal turing machines?
<water> hmm maybe
<Fare> certainly, Li&Vitanyi's book on K-complexity must have something about it in their .bib
<water> yes
<water> ok, combin logic, universal combinators, ...
<water> a ha!
<water> darn
11:40am
<water> "a new approach to formal lang theory via K-c"
<Fare> what? where?
<Fare> such an article would spare me the pain to write it myself...
<water> http://www.cwi.nl/~paulv/papers/formal.ps
<water> there's more
<water> "K-c arguments in combinatorics"
* water/#tunes has about a dozen windows open now.
<water> "incuctive reasoning and K-c"
<Fare> Paul Vitanyi really *rocks*
<Fare> he's a very nice guy, too
<water> exactly.
<water> i wish i knew any of these people
<Fare> I was lucky enough to meet him at TAI99
<Fare> going to conferences *rocks*
<water> bleh
<Fare> you should really apply to a CS research center, too :)
* water/#tunes hates the navy
<water> how? where?
<Fare> the navy hates you, so you're even
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<Fare> how? where? dunno. Ask for a tuition. Show your talents to a professor.
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<water> ok
<water> wash. univ. then
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<Fare> Too bad I'm not a grant-bringer myself :( :( :(
<Fare> when was the FSF founded? 1984?
<water> earlier
<water> check the web site
11:50am
<water> that formal lang paper by K-c is pretty good.
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<water> hi atg
<Fare> soooo many good things to read!
<water> so little time :)
<Fare> water: could you begin a repository of interesting papers for the Review project?
<Fare> selecting the cream of the cream of papers in CS...
<water> like copying my hard drive and zip disk papers?
<water> oh, filtering, too.
<Fare> yeah
<Fare> with URLs to originals, too
<Fare> that's important
<Tril> sounds like it could be ugly to me, what about copyrights
<water> well, url's will be hard to re-construct for some
<Fare> well, first, copyrights are evil.
<Fare> then, we can give just the URL, whenever it is still available
<Fare> (and keep a hidden cached copy in case it disappears)
<water> why couldn't we re-distribute the doc on the web, where it's already available?
<Fare> sure. But if the paper is good, we must keep a copy for posterity.
<Tril> water: It depends if the original author allows it.  Technically, web sites are not allowed to be re-distributed without permission, unless otherwise written on them.
<water> oh
<Tril> Including graphics and layout, which most people blatantly ignore
<water> i just meant offering a copy of a paper's file which is already freely available
<Fare> God grants me the right to copy information
<Fare> whatever laws men say against it are worth zilch
<Tril> right, it is possible the author doesn't want other servers do do that.  You should really check with every publisher of every paper, individually, or risk causing trouble later.
<Fare> the Law of God is superior to those of men.
* water/#tunes knows that information technically can't be copied. that's called noise.
<Tril> Fare: ARe you trying to start a holy war
<Tril> Fare: because those are usually started when someone says God grants them the right to murder
<binEng> God may provide superior laws, but the implementation is all human
<Tril> water, i'd be glad to store a backup of all your saved research on bespin. After that, we can see if anyone has time to work it into a site somehow.
<iepos> hey fare, do you have a copy of Curry's "Combinatory Logic"?
<Fare> iepos: not at home
<iepos> oh, well do you have one at work, then?
<Fare> but there are a few copies at unis and research centers in and 'round Paris
<water> tril: btw, in the "todo" section, you refer to reviewing st andrews' papers. i have the relevant ones and have done so.
<Fare> not at work, either
<Fare> but go to a library
<water> tril: ok
<Fare> living in a big city with lots of unis is GOOD
<Tril> water: Fare did all the work for Review, I never wrote a sngle TODO section!
<iepos> i don't live a big city ~:(
<Tril> I'm just hosting it on my server right now.
<iepos> i mean :~(
<iepos> :-)
* Fare/#Tunes wrote around 98% of the TUNES pages :(
<water> tril: i'll ftp them in directories by subject matter
12:00pm
<water> fare needs a break, then.
<Tril> water: are you sure? I thought it was hundreds and hundreds of megs.
<water> tril: how much space do i get?
<Tril> If you have plenty of online time, sure.
<Tril> space?  as much as you want is fine with me..
<water> 17.7MB for direct arrow references, so far
<Tril> just check "df" before uploading each time to make sure there's enough room on the drive when you do it
<water> ok
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-231-44.s298.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com])
<Tril> and if there is not, tell me, and I'll free some up
<Fare> upload it compressed :)
* water/#tunes really should work on making a web server.
<water> fare: right
<Fare> we should have a database with 1) original URL for the paper 2) URL for the author 3) filter used (uncompress | bzip2)
<Fare> and 4) BibTeX entry
* Fare/#Tunes thinks about buying a new drive this year; actually a whole linux server
<water> btw all, does anyone have objections over Arrow terms?
<Fare> the bibtex entry is itself a small database with conditional entries...
<Fare> water: not today, 'cause I must write my speech
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<water> btw all, does anyone have objections over Arrow terms? (must repeat)
<Tril> like what?
<water> like graph, or ontology, or arrow for that matter.
<Fare> gnus is not working anymore since I installed debian :( :( :(
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<Tril> what about node? I think you have 3 things, arrows, graphs, and nodes.  Where arrows and graphs are nodes.
<Pauldoo> yo
<Tril> hey it's demon.co.uk, how are they treating you?
<water> arrow derives from arrow logic, but my logic is reflective relativised arrow logic
<Pauldoo> fine, why?
<Pauldoo> ur all binEng's pals right?
<Tril> Pauldoo: Just heard they are censoring users to comply with the law
<water> paul: yes
<Pauldoo> what law?
<Fare> what about lambda-terms?
<Fare> everything is a lambda-term
12:10pm
<Tril> bineng just left..
<water> fare: why?
<Fare> everything has the LAMBDA nature
* water/#tunes slaps Fare around a bit with a large trout
<Pauldoo> yeah, he just left #programmingplace too
<Tril> water: was that meant to answer my question? 
<water> i'm trying to relate arrow to existing theory.
<Tril> i'm trying to relate it to my theory.
<water> tril: sort of.
<Pauldoo> arrow theory...
<Fare> category theory has an all-arrows formulation
<water> fare: categories have nodes as well, and aren't as general as my theory
<Pauldoo> primg
<Pauldoo> programming?
<water> yes
<Fare> (repeat) category theory has an all-arrows formulation
<Pauldoo> kewl
<Pauldoo> what's the prob/idea?
<water> fare: in cat th, arrows only point to nodes.
<water> paul: cs theory
<Fare> (thrid time) category theory has an all-arrows formulation
<Pauldoo> cs?
<Fare> without the need for "nodes"
<water> paul: comp.sci
<water> fare: explain
<Pauldoo> ahh
<Fare> (the concept of nodes being expressed from arrows as the identity arrows)
<Fare> water: get MacLane's book
<water> sure, that's a part of my theory
<water> but mine is still more general
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* water/#tunes is not surprised about Pauldoo
<Fare> Tril: how's your tunes.lisp?
<Tril> why did you make him leave?
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<Tril> fare, put off for a while.. i plan to spend lots of time this summer on it though
* water/#tunes wonders how many GhostScript windows he can easily use at once.
<Fare> what do you think about CL vs Scheme?
<Fare> ( particularly considered from the point of view of using them in Tunes...)
<water> tril: i didn't make him, did i?
<water> :(
* water/#tunes realizes what he did.
12:20pm
<iepos> fare: i'm still trying to find a set of axioms that can replace the generalization rule :-) 
<iepos> do you know of a set that works?
<water> it wouldn't be finite, would it?
<iepos> i don't know. i hope so.
<iepos> i hoping maybe 2 or 3...
<iepos> like what S and K do for the conditional rule...
<Fare> iepos: write it in terms of sequents
<water> maybe they would be meta-system axioms.
<Fare> express your sequents themselves as lambda-terms
<iepos> ummmmm... what is a sequent?
<Tril> Fare I find common lisp easier to code in because it's less picky, but it's just an aesthetic choice so far.  I would like to know how to implement persistence. I have no idea how to use disk files in either lisp or scheme. If one was better (or had persistence already) I might use it over the other.
<Fare> A |- B
<iepos> what does that mean?
<Tril> entails
<Fare> Tril: RScheme has persistence of data. So has ACL or CMUCL, with PLOB
* iepos/#TUNES looks up "entails" in his dictionary
<Tril> iepos, entails means all propositions that are true under A are also true under B (Where A and B are models)
<water> a |- b helps reify inference flow
<Fare> or that proposition B is true under hypothesis A
<Tril> Fare: is plob the same thing as saving the state into lisp.core?
<water> that way, you can apply axioms to it
<iepos> so a sequent is a statement of inclusion of one proof system within another?
<Fare> Tril: not the same
<Tril> why?
<Fare> done incrementally, but only for data of fixed classes
<Fare> (I think it's not for code)
<Fare> PLOB uses the runtime developed at St Andrews...
<Fare> see the docs for PLOB
<iepos> fare: i'm not even using these sequents, so how would expressing them as lambda-terms help ?
<Fare> several ways to express them as lambda-terms
<Fare> depends if you have propositions-as-types or pop-as-terms
<Fare> s/pop/prop/
<Tril> abi plob?
<abi> tril: i don't know
<iepos> i don't think i have either...
<iepos> i think maybe i need an example to explain....
<Fare> abi: PLOB is at http://www.lisp.de/software/plob/Welcome.html
12:30pm
<Fare> prop-as-types is what you have in Coq
<Fare> you really should learn Coq
<Fare> prop-as-terms is what you have in my masters thesis
<iepos> suppose i know that 'all x.(F x -> G x)' and 'all x.(G x -> H x)'... I also have 'all x.all y.all z.(x -> y) -> (y -> z) -> (x -> z)'... i want to deduce 'all x.F x -> H x' by means of some axioms.. there are of course other problems... is there a nice set of axioms that will work in all cases that generalization does?
<iepos> I'm using "x.y" for lambda and "all" for the "pi" combinator...
<Tril> i gotta go
<iepos> bye, Tril!
<Tril> C U later
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<Fare> iepos: it's more standard to use \x.y or \x->y for ASCII lambda terms
<iepos> i know... that's why i explained my notation...
<iepos> i get tired of "\" ... it is cluttery
<Fare> you should really see Curry's stuff
<iepos> i know... i don't know where to get his book though.
<Fare> Pi \x.E is forall x.E
<Fare> P X Y is X implies Y
<iepos> well i guess that's what i mean by my "all" then...
<iepos> okay... well i used "->" in that last example for implies.
<Fare> Psi X Y is forall z. x z implies y z
<Fare> (or is it another symbol?)
<iepos> who cares? keep going...
<Fare> the axioms relate Pi, P, Psi, etc
<Fare> no time tonight, must really go.
<Fare> maybe tomorrow night?
<iepos> yeah... of course Psi can be built from Pi and combinators...
<iepos> yeah...
<Fare> lambdas are replaces by SKI as usual
<iepos> yep...
<Fare> well, bye!
<iepos> bye!
* Fare/#Tunes is away
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12:40pm
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<Beholder> Anyone here?
01:50pm
<water> yep
* water/#tunes is doing some web research for arrow
<water> and tunes
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<water> hi beh
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<water> hi hcf
<Beholder> Hey Wat :)
<Beholder> Hey hcf
<hcf> hoy ppl
02:10pm
<water> topic, anyone?
<Beholder> I have another C++ problem... but I feel like I'm just buggin people now ;)
<water> hmm
<hcf> Beholder: pulling a hickserv? ;)
<Beholder> hcf:  Trying to! :) hehehe
<water> wow, so hick is now his own cliche!
* water/#tunes is researching cs theory papers.
<Beholder> wat:  Anything interesting yet?
<water> yes
<water> "formal language theory and K-c"
<water> another K-c paper on combinatorics
<water> rewriting logic papers
<Beholder> wat:  Whats the general gist of it?
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<water> it basically has a lot of results for formal lang theory via K-c analysis
<Beholder> K-c?
<abi> K-c is supposed to be some absolute measure of complexity? What does absolute mean? For people in general? For one person? for the universe?
<water> abi forget K-c
<abi> water: I forgot k-c
<water> abi: K-c is Kolmogorov complexity
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<_BC> Hi
<abi> que tal, _BC
<water> K-c is also a measure for algorithmic complexity based on the shortest program that computes the algorithm
<abi> okay, water.
<water> K-c?
<abi> K-c is, like, Kolmogorov complexity or a measure for algorithmic complexity based on the shortest program that computes the algorithm
<water> cool
<Beholder> Wat: I can't imagine they've figured out the shortest method for doing every single algo that's been thought of ;)
<_BC> Wathats up?
<hcf> water: got any urls for K-c?
<water> right, it's just a formalism, and isn't a complete theory
<_BC> cu
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02:20pm
<water> hcf: just a sec
<iStormy_> hewwo
<water> hi storm
<Beholder> Hey iStormy
<water> hcf: try http://www.cwi.nl/~paulv/kolmogorov.html
<water> it has pointers to helpful papers
<water> also, you could buy the book
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02:30pm
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (sleeping ...)
<Beholder> hey smkl
* water/#tunes is very glad to have subscribed to the LANL comp.sci archives. :)
<Beholder> wat: :)
<water> this rocks!  they do automatic pdf and ps generation from TeX and LaTeX sources!
<Beholder> wat:  Now thats service ;)
<water> plus all sorts of categorization and indexing of papers.
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<water> hi joob
<Joob> Hello
<abi> hoy, Joob
<Joob> hello abi
<Joob> what's news?
* water/#tunes is getting research from the web
<Beholder> Hey Joob
<Joob> Hello Beholder
<Joob> abi
<abi> Joob?
<Beholder> Joob:  Abi is a bot
<Beholder> :)
02:40pm
<water> beh: Joob has been here before, but doesn't speak english well.
<water> beh: he speaks portuguese
<Beholder> wat:  As do most of the people on my ICQ list :)  
<Joob> Oi
<Joob> :)
<Beholder> Joob:  Are you from Portugal or South America?
<Joob> Brazil
<Joob> or Brasil
<Joob> water = água
<Beholder> Joob:  Where abouts in Brazil (what town?)
<water> sim
<Joob> town = downtown ?
02:50pm
<Beholder> Joob:  town = city
<Joob> I'm from Vila Velha, Espirito Santo, Brazil
<Beholder> Joob:  Is that Northern Brazil?
<Joob> No, is Sudeste
<Joob> Under Bahia
<Joob> voce conhece a Bahia?
<Beholder> Joob:  I'm not very good with Brazilian geography :)
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03:00pm
<Joob> Where you from beholder?
<Joob> Where are  you from beholder?
<Beholder> Joob: Canada
<Joob> I'm know Toronto City
<Beholder> Joob:  I live very near Toronto :)
<Joob> is cold in Canada ?
<Joob> abi ?
<abi> Joob?
<Beholder> Joob:  It's very warm right now.... 30 deg Celcius
<Joob> hahaha
<Joob> here is 45°
<Beholder> 45?!  Ouch.  That's way too hot! :)
<Joob> No, is warm 
03:10pm
<Beholder> 45 deg celcius?
<Joob> Sorry
<Joob> is 38°
<Beholder> That's still too hot :)
<Joob> no, hot in brazil is 40°
<Joob> is cold in brazi max 10°
<Beholder> Cold here is -45 deg C :)
<Joob> oque
<Joob> ?
<Joob> -45º is very, very, very cold
<Beholder> Heheh :)  That's very cold here too.  It usually doesn't drop past -35 deg C
<water> i should hope not.
<Joob> what's hope ?
<abi> i think hope is that out of those many loosely related projects, we'll be able to combine one, two or more to make a new computing system that improves a lot of areas :)
<water> abi: forget hope
<abi> water: I forgot hope
<water> wow, abi is hopeless!
<water> :)
<water> abi?
<abi> water?
<Joob> :)
<Beholder> wat: :)
03:20pm
<water> beh: joob wants to know why i've never kissed a girl before.
<water> (we've been msg'ing)
<water> joob: i can't explain
<Beholder> wat: Good answer :) 
<water> beh: i'm sure that you have some theories about why that is.
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<water> ?
<Beholder> wat:  I do, but this is not the time or place to say.  :)
<water> did i embarrass him or something?
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<water> oh
<Joob> que isto ?
<Beholder> wat:  Internet connections are not very reliable in Brazil... or so I've been told
* Beholder/#tunes is away for a few min
<Joob> water help me ?
<water> joob: help you with what?
<Joob> how Beholder talked ?
<water> how beholder talked about what?
<Joob> do you understand?
<water> i don't know if i understand
<Joob> connections 
<water> oh
<Joob> what's l've ?
<water> he said that internet connections  in brazil are not stable
<water> I've = i have
<Joob> what's "been" ?
<water> been = past participle of "to be"
<water> like "was"
<Joob> been = participou
<water> no
<water> or yes
<water> i don't know
<Joob> humm ok, I'm question to my teacher
<water> good
03:30pm
<Beholder> wat:  Interesting how we can't explain even basic words in english to someone native to another language...
* Beholder/#tunes is back
<water> beh: that's one of the reasons that i invented my language
<Joob> water I'm sorry because question in pvt :)
<water> joob: ok
<Joob> friends?
<water> maybe
<Joob> :o()
<Joob> You are "CASCA GROSSA"
<water> i am what?
<Joob> :)
<Joob> Casca grossa
<Joob> is
<Beholder> wat:  check out babelfish (babelfish.altavista.com)  
<water> oh yeah
<Joob> are you know girua ?
<Joob> are you know giria ?
<water> no
<Joob> Example:
<Joob> you are my brother
<water> babelfish does not know casca grossa
<Joob> my brother is giria
<water> ok
<Joob> casca grossa = hard
<Joob> hard = duro?
<water> i don't understand
03:40pm
<Joob> wait
<water> why am i casca grossa (=hard?)
<Joob> no
<Joob> casca = bark
<Joob> grossa = gross
<Joob> bark gross = casca grossa
<water> ?
<water> is that good or bad?
<Joob> is a express
<Joob> is good
* water/#tunes does not understand why gross bark is good.
<water> :)
<Joob> my dictionary is uma bosta
<Joob> bosta = coco  is giria
<Joob> {{{{{{{ Joob }}}}}}}
<Joob> Joob slams a 60 lb unix manual on Joob 's head. That gotta hurt... but then again... where there's no sense... there's no feeling!
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<water> hehe
<water> hi, sr
<s_r> hi
<abi> hola, s_r
<Joob> hello s_r
<Joob> water: hola = hello ?
<Beholder> hey SR! :)
<water> joob: sim
<Joob> No have "h"
<s_r> beholder: i am going to write UniOS, once and for all :P
<Joob> Ola
<Joob> Olá
<Beholder> sr:  Go for it! :)   If you have time, send me a copy when you're done :)
<s_r> heh
<Joob> are you understand?
<water> yes
03:50pm
<Joob> :)
<Joob> olha o asento
<Joob> see "á" ok?!
<water> yes
<Joob> people i'm going
<water> ok
<Joob> happy endseek
<Joob> bom final de semana
<Joob> bye bye
<water> bye
-:- SignOff Joob: #TUNES (Read error to Joob[dm2065.vix.zaz.com.br]: Connection reset by peer)
<Beholder> wat:  Did you understand anything he said?
<water> beh: about half of it
<water> i think that i understand more of his portuguese than of his english
<water> :D
<Beholder> :)
<Beholder> wat:  So how have you been lately?  
<water> what aspect?
<Beholder> wat: Any of em, you choose ;)
<water> no thanks
<Beholder> wat:  Ok, how about the arrows runtime?
<water> it's bare-bones right now
<water> i will probably simplify it, though
<water> so that i can port it much more easily
<Beholder> wat:  What are you writing it in?
<water> Squeak right now, but Lisp would be simple, too.
<water> Squeak?
<abi> i think Squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/
<water> it's open-source, free, portable, and translates code into portable C sources.
04:00pm
<Beholder> wat:  Sounds interesting :) Especially that part about translating into portable C...
<water> especially because a Squeak environment includes the VM code
<Beholder> wat:  What's the advantage of using it over C++? 
<water> smalltalk? machine-independence and a relatively simple language style ("everything is an object")
<water> this allows explorative programming
<water> everything is done with objects and messages.
<Beholder> wat: Sounds interesting.  Is the syntax easy to learn?
<water> except for VM bytecode primitives
<water> syntax = message-passing
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<water> wb joob
<Joob> E ai galera 
<water> the syntax is very simple
<Beholder> wat:  I guess it must be useable enought to make Arrows :)
<Joob> my girlfriend is beast
<Joob> :C)
<water> well, a bare-bones arrow system should be implementable on any system with only a little code.
<water> even in C
<water> smalltalk is just easier to modify
<water> and very simple to debug
<water> joob: your girlfriend is a beast?
<water> not best?
<Joob> no beast
<Joob> GRAAARRRRRR
<Joob> brava
<Joob> nervosa
<Joob> she's talked  me *$@#**(@*&#@*($#@¨@#$&*¨$*#@&
<water> joob: are you a bad boyfriend?
<Joob> why?
<water> joob: is your girlfriend jealous of your computer?
<water> :)
04:10pm
<Joob> yes
<Joob> Is correct word
<water> how did i know that? :)
<Joob> she's very kid
<water> very kid?
<Joob> is giria
<Joob> wait
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<water> hi qz
<_QZ> hello
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<water> what's up, qz?
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<Joob> she's mimada
<Joob> deixa ela para lá
<Joob> you are talk about  C
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 3 hrs 45 min 10 secs
<Beholder> Hey Tril
<Tril> hi
<water> hey tril
<Joob> Abi is chidrean of Trill?
<Joob> Abi is childrean of Trill?
<Beholder> I think Abi is fare's little slave? :)
<Joob> what's little?
04:20pm
<Joob> hey water
<Joob> you are here ???
<Beholder> joob:  Sorry Little
<water> joob: what?
<Joob> :)
<Joob> please, what's little?
<Tril> hcf is owner of abi
<Tril> little = not big
<Joob> small
<Tril> yes
<Joob> humm
<Joob> thank you
<Tril> english has many words that are alike
<Joob> bye i'm will talk my girlfriend
<Joob> bye water
<Joob> bye beholder
<Joob> bye Trill
<Joob> bye people
<water> bye
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<water> joob can be really frustrating
<Beholder> wat:  Communication = patience :)
<water> i know
<water> but i am anxious about my project, and it affects my whole attitude
04:30pm
<Beholder> wat:  Peace :)  Everything comes in time.
<water> peace of mind can never come soon enough
<Beholder> wat:  Have you ever read the Tao Te Ching?
<water> beh: don't you mean "how many times?"
<Beholder> wat: :)  Chapter One is my favorite.... 
<Beholder> ... or entry one...  however it's organized in your copy
04:40pm
<Beholder> well, I must leave now, later all :)
<water> "Further Experimental Evidence against the Utility of Occam's Razor
<water> "
<water> bye beh
<Beholder> wat: bye :)
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<water> is anyone here?
<Tril> yeah
<water> anything on your mind?
<water> i'm busy reviewing stuff from the web
<Tril> yeah some thins.. i'm going to write a bit more in my specs soon..
<water> what about the review db?
<Tril> that's what I'm doing now :)
<water> oh, ok
<Tril> trying to get zope working
<water> when will it be ready for use?
<Tril> any minute now :)
<Tril> cough, cough
<water> great. :p
* water/#tunes is combing through the LANL CS archives for useful material.
04:50pm
<Tril> this zope sure needs better documentation 
<water> as opposed to some other zope?
<Tril> as opposed to the non-existent zope with better documentation
<water> oh, of course
* water/#tunes develops vertigo from scrolling through so many tech report abstracts.
<water> }:P
<water> as fare would say, "this research obviously lacks the LAMBDA nature."
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-205-225.s225.tnt4.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hi atg
<AlonzoTG> om
05:00pm
<Tril> wow it worked this time for some reason.
<water> will wonders ever cease?
<water> :)
-:- CosmicRay [jgoerzen@erwin.complete.org] has joined #tunes
<water> hi cosmic
<CosmicRay> hello
<CosmicRay> does this channel have anything to do with music or...?
<water> not exactly
<Tril> not directly, it's a software environment project
<water> we're a programming project
<CosmicRay> oh
<CosmicRay> ok I was WAY off then :-)
<CosmicRay> what sort of project?
<water> abi tunes?
<abi> tunes is probably http://www.tunes.org, a free reflective computing system or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers
<water> hehe
<CosmicRay> hahaha
<water> who added the last entry?
<CosmicRay> this thing is gpl'd?
<Tril> you did, yesterday.
<water> anyway, the web site (and faq) should tell you what you want.
* Tril/#TUNES greps the logs
* CosmicRay/#tunes browses
<water> oh yeah! i added that one.
<Tril> but if they don't, come back here and complain!
* CosmicRay/#tunes reads the faq and experiences a bout with jargon overload :-)
<Tril> well, you said it, and abi picked it up.
<water> yes, please complain. otherwise, we won't know that we're incoherent.
<water> hehe :)
05:20pm
<CosmicRay> so do y'all have some code already?  or is this in design stage?
<Tril> Cosmic the glossary is 178K, it should have the answer for all those jargon definitions
<CosmicRay> hehe
<water> we have a few small prototypes
<Tril> but it's definitely still in the design stage :)
<water> i have the Arrow code, and Tril has tunes.lsp
<CosmicRay> tunes.lsp?  LISP code?
<water> yes
<water> it used to be tunes.c
<CosmicRay> so, scary question here, can this new OS/language/whatever be run inside emacs? :-)
<water> haha!
<water> it's an environment
<water> you can emulate it with emacs
<water> or whatever
<Tril> with tunes I'm sure the emacs people will be happy, they can actually take over the whole OS with their stinkin' editor
<water> like my code runs on generic smalltalk, and so is portable, too.
<CosmicRay> haha tril :-)
<Tril> our idea is integration.  Emacs integrates a lot of things, bbut we want a full OS that is integrated, and all the programming languages in it, etc.
<CosmicRay> Tril: sorta like the early Unix and C or...?
<Tril> right. unix uses a concept of streams to unify everytrhing, we are exploring higher level ways.
<CosmicRay> ah ha, I found the glossary :-)
<CosmicRay> ahh fascinating
<water> cosmic: please ignore the political slant.
<Tril> for instance I'd like to use types and functions and objects, while water here wants to make everything an arrow. :)
<water> right
* CosmicRay/#tunes is having trouble following.  Probably because I'm a hacker at heart and never did very well with the theoritical CS stuff :-)
<water> oh
<water> hmm...
<Tril> ok, the hacker perspective is that you get total control over your OS, you can access any part of the entire system using whatever interface you want.
<CosmicRay> ok now that sounds damn cool :-)
<Tril> and you can change it, and see results right away.
<CosmicRay> even cooler
<water> and you can change the system in any _way_ that you want.
<CosmicRay> is this perhaps loosely analogous to prolog?
<Tril> in what way?
<water> it's sort of like smalltalk.
<CosmicRay> in that in prolog, you define the logic but not the flow; change one thing, and the flow can automatically change as per the logic
* CosmicRay/#tunes doesn't know smalltalk unfortunately :-(
<Tril> yes.  We hope to use declarative style (like prolog) to specify everything, and allow a synergy of human + program to find functions that fulfill the specificaitons.
<Tril> I'm basically combining functional, declarative and OO things in my prototype.
<CosmicRay> ahh..  I think I may be catching on now. :-)
<CosmicRay> You're starting a new OS, but first, inventing a new language for it?
05:30pm
<CosmicRay> ie, like was done with C and Unix?
<AlonzoTG> u don't need a nu language
<AlonzoTG> really a waste of thyme
<AlonzoTG> just code everything in asm. =P
<Tril> yes. our language won't be text-based, it will use abstract structures within a persistent store that the user or program interacts with.
<water> a "playground for objects"
<CosmicRay> hmm, very oo then.  not text-based?
<water> not necessarily
* CosmicRay/#tunes doesn't quite follow on that point
<water> you could play with the same algorithms graphically or by text
<CosmicRay> hmmmm
<CosmicRay> interesting
<CosmicRay> got screenshots of this graphical editor?
<Tril> the UI goal is to allow ALL interfaces of any nature to access the same system.  You can do the same things in a GUI or text.  With no extra work by the programmer.
<CosmicRay> or is that in design?
<CosmicRay> fascinating
<water> when and if it works, of course
<CosmicRay> hehe
<Tril> no, the screenshots are just all in our head, right now
<CosmicRay> well sketch it out on a napkin or something to help enlighten the masses :-)
<Tril> draw a picture of a factorial operation, then you'll get close..
<CosmicRay> so when should we start seeing some code or something usable
<Tril> N objects permute in N! ways
<CosmicRay> ?
<Tril> by the end of the summer
<CosmicRay> cool
<CosmicRay> I have a feeling this is the sort of thing I'm not going understand until I play with it :-)
<water> tril's promoting his own code, of course.
<Tril> i have the same feeling, that showing someone something to play with is the best way to explain it, as well.
<Tril> water: how so
<water> tril: it just seemed like you expect your code to be "finished" by the end of the summer.
<Tril> Not really. But by the end of summer we'll know if this attempt is a failure, or if it is going somewhere. That's all I'm looking for..
<CosmicRay> perhaps I take a diffent line of query.  How is this similar/different to a JVM?
<water> the JVM can't itself be adapted to new uses
<Tril> what i'm expecting to happen is I get to a certain point, then write some stuff down, then work on code some more
<water> tril: ok
<water> the JVM is also bound to a particualr encoding of data: byte-codes
<CosmicRay> ahh, so is this where metaprogramming comes in?
05:40pm
<water> yes
<CosmicRay> ah!
* CosmicRay/#tunes experiences a brief glimmer of the light bulb :-)
* water/#tunes plays the theme from 2001 for cosmic.
<CosmicRay> so IOW, the system can totaly redefine its own concept of how it interacts with the world?
<CosmicRay> hehe
<water> we think so.
<CosmicRay> appropriate :-)
<CosmicRay> ahhh
<water> that's my particular theory, anyway
<CosmicRay> now that is quite interesting
* CosmicRay/#tunes ponders the possibilities
<CosmicRay> ok I'm hooked :-)
<water> wow.
<Tril> I prefer to have my finger on the controls, but it seems water is ready to let the system go off on its own?
<water> we have a mailing list, you knwo.
<CosmicRay> yes I saw it on the website
<water> tril: not exactly.
* CosmicRay/#tunes clicks "subscribe" :-)
* water/#tunes thinks that tunes might get a lot of support once it works right.
<CosmicRay> so it looks like y'all have some DARPA funding for this?
<Tril> i'm not sure I want my system to redefine its concept of the world without consulting me.  I'll let it change its representation all it wants, for optimization.  But obviously the user needs to be able to specify static constraints that the system MUST follow.
<water> until then, ...
<Tril> cosmic, no funding, it's completely volunteer and over the net
<water> cosmic: actually, we're completely amateur
<CosmicRay> hmm
<CosmicRay> what relation does "oskit" have to this?
<water> ok, maybe amateur is the wrong word, but...
<CosmicRay> I understand, np
<CosmicRay> I clicked a link somewhere on your site and got to oskit from cs.utah
<water> cosmic: it could help us make the system work on its own.
<Tril> CosmicRay: In other words, it's all new, don't believe us until you see it, etc.
<CosmicRay> right
* CosmicRay/#tunes wonders what the possibilities are of y'all using Linux or Hurd as a base
<CosmicRay> this Retro thing, it's working code?
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<water> actually, Fare just came up with some formal requirements for the base
<Fare> is anyone here keen about procmail?
<Tril> retro works for some people, not for others, i think.
* CosmicRay/#tunes raises his hand
<Tril> water: Fare came up with what?
* Tril/#TUNES uses procmail
<water> tril: have you read 'implement1'?
<Fare> I'm being spammed by a bot who replies an error message to a list that forwards the message to the bot, etc...
<Tril> water: oh, yo mean the implementation stuff. 
<water> tril: right.
<CosmicRay> Fare: you mean there's a mail loop on the list?
<Tril> Fare: That's not on our server, is it?
05:50pm
<Fare> for the list? no it isn't
<Fare> happily, it seems there is a limit for messages > 1000 lines in the bot, so it stopped
<Fare> Tril: could you proof-check my ~/.procmailrc ?
<Tril> i'm not sure if it's required, but put a space after ^ and a . instead of a space after From
<Fare> or maybe it's just my procmailrc moving everything to /dev/null...
<CosmicRay> gotta run, cyall later
-:- CosmicRay [jgoerzen@erwin.complete.org] has left #tunes []
<Fare> isn't that ^ a regex thing?
<Tril> sure
<Tril> but that's hwo they do it in all the examples, and it works.
<Fare> why isn't LOGFILE working?
<Tril> it is
<Tril> but you have a folder called ^From: now in your home directory
<Fare> ggrrrr. Just in the middle of that sentence, my ISP let me odnw!
<Tril> ok I will be back in a bit.. gotta go to dinner
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<water> fare: i got the ASM bibs
<water> you need url's too, right?
<Fare> wter: oh?
<Fare> yup
<water> hold on a sec
<water> here's a bibTeX
<Fare> did you find it on the net?
<Fare> just gimme the URL, then
06:00pm
<water> darn. i just sent the file to tril!
<water> i wonder why he accepted?
<water> here's the main url:
<water> http://www.eecs.umich.edu/gasm/
<water> i guess that you don't want the bibtex?
<water> fare: i'm looking for the abstract interpretation stuff now
<water> fare: still there?
<Fare> hum, sorry, got it, thanks
<water> got what?
<Fare> your url
<water> ok
<Fare> btw, dcc is mostly useless to me. Try mail instead when you have a file
* water/#tunes should really sort out his new research papers.
<water> ok
* Tril/#TUNES turns off autoget again (It was on because water was sending me stuff before)
<water> sorry. my bad
<Fare> Piano Masters of Monte-Carlo...
06:10pm
<water> fare: what?
<Fare> (classical music)
<water> uh. sure.
<Fare> Won by Maurizio Ballini (or such)
<water> what are you talking about?
<Fare> $30000 prize
<water> ok
* water/#tunes still doesn't know what this has to do with the price of tea in China.
06:20pm
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> =\
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-206.tscnet.net])
-:- water [water@ppp-tnt-249.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
06:40pm
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Reflective Computing System (www.tunes.org)
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #Tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System (www.tunes.org)
<eStormy> retro?
<abi> hmmm... retro is at http://bespin.cx/~tcn/retro.html
<_QZ> if thread1 is waiting for thread2 to finish then what would be a good name for the flag in thread2 that says there is a thread waiting on it?
<eStormy> can_thread2_come_out_to_play
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> i would prefer a single word, two max
<water> hmm
07:00pm
<eStormy> hurry_up   responsible    needs_me    
<eStormy> thread_waiting seems most obvious
<water> yes, thread_waiting
<_QZ> ya that sounds good
<eStormy> hmph, no bochs in debian
<_QZ> hahah
<_QZ> get redhat
<eStormy> redhat is an appalling slapped-together mess
<_QZ> atleast it works
<_QZ> THD_FLAGS_THD_WAITING
<s_r> QZ is BriX open source still?
<_QZ> s_r: yes
<_QZ> unless tril is here right now :)
<water> assembly is by def open source. :)
<_QZ> heh
<eStormy> no one can read it anyhow, whatsit hurt
<s_r> QZ's code must be like some beginner's messy BASIC
<water> spaghetti code!
<_QZ> my code looks like C
<eStormy> even worse!
<eStormy> brix?
<abi> hmmm... brix is _QZ's OS, http://www.qzx.com/brix, <Fare> who cares about BRiX? It's evil proprietary software!
<s_r> BRiX sounds cool
<s_r> with all the objects and threads
<water> Fare's right again!
<_QZ> fare is just jealous cuz brix is better than tunes
<s_r> how can brix be better than something that doesn't exist?
<_QZ> :)
<_QZ> he also knows that brix will exist years or decades before tunes will
<water> fare's jealous of someone who uses tunes project bandwidth for their own personal pet project!!
<_QZ> :)
<s_r> everyone in the tunes project is too busy talking about ontologies and such to actually write real code
<water> sr: well, can anyone write tunes code?
<s_r> i doubt anyone will ever write tunes code
<water> sr: can you write tunes code, smart ass?
<water> sr: are you part of tunes?
07:10pm
* eStormy/#Tunes has never understood a word on the tunes site...no PhD.  )c:
<s_r> water hehe
<s_r> water i'm not part of tunes and i probably can't write tunes code
<_QZ> its seems all the tunes members are a bit on edge lately?
<s_r> too much coffee for water
<water> then don't use tunes space to insult tunes!
* water/#tunes has bad dreams because of an idea that he has but can't express. making tunes will help express that idea.
<water> until tunes is reality, i get no good sleep.
<s_r> water will tunes be Squeak, or Forth?
<water> sr: neither.
* eStormy/#Tunes wants to code up a storm on something...anything...but his hands have been messed up for 2 years.  )c:
<water> sr: it's not about those languages
<s_r> what will tunes be written in?
<eStormy> s_r: i think tunes is a standard, not actual code.  then people can write their own oses that are tunes-compliant.
<water> tunes isn't like other standards, though.
<s_r> i'm going to take the tunes ideas, the arrow system ideas, meld them, and do some actual coding
<s_r> and supplant the tunes team
<water> sr: go right ahead, smart boy
<s_r> eheh
<s_r> now water's really pissed
<_QZ> s_r: or just wait for brix to be released and then tunes will collapse when all its members switch teams :)
<water> no, i'm just annoyed at such stupid coders mouthing off about the people who think more than they code.
<s_r> QZ are there going to be similarities between BeOS and BriX?
<eStormy> s_r: no...99% of the people that come in here say they are writing an os, but only 1% are actually doing it.  (c;
<s_r> ok water, i was joking
<_QZ> s_r: ya they both run on computers
* eStormy/#Tunes has been trying very hard to become a thinking coder.  not very difficult anymore, since he can't type enough to code.  (c:
<water> i'm not writing an os
<eStormy> anyone want sandwiches...i'm making.
<water> but i have to prove that the tunes prototype can _make_ an os whenever and however it decides to.
* s_r/#tunes orders an italian sandwich from eStormy.
07:20pm
<eStormy> have i fallen off the os-ideas/help lists, or are they still silent?
-:- iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
-:- SignOff eStormy: #TUNES (eStormy has no reason)
07:30pm
<_QZ> still silent
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 39 min 5 secs
<Tril> FOO!
<_QZ> oh no
<water> ?
<Tril> zope works now. what next?
<water> oh
<Tril> now i guess I have to learn about it
<water> what?
<water> that doesn't sound good.
<Tril> well, I know ABOUT it. I meant I need to learn specifics
<s_r> water: do you like Forth?
<water> ok
<Tril> so I can set something up in it. However, any help would be appreciated.
<water> sr: sure
<Tril> like, someone else reading about zope on the zope page and giving suggestions.
<s_r> what's a good language to program an OS in?
<s_r> Forth?
<abi> Forth is at http://www.forth.org or a nice user interface
<Tril> http://zope.tunes.org/
<water> ok
<water> wow. an empty directory. really helpful. :)
<Tril> I was going to add a new user, but it asked what domains they would get access to. I don't have any domains, so we'd better read about that first.
<Tril> oh heck..  try http://zope.tunes.org/cgi-bin/Zope.cgi  :)
<water> ok
<water> user name guest?
<Tril> do you know anything about zope?
<water> no
07:40pm
<water> does it have a homepage?
<Tril> well then login wont be of much use. go browse their page first on www.zope.org :)
<water> ooh. interesting
* Tril/#TUNES enters the users gudes section
* water/#tunes looks at the zope docs
<Tril> (you should read the intros first though))
* water/#tunes goes to the how-tos
* water/#tunes changes to the user guides
<water> :)
<water> dtml?
<water> ok. i got the dtml guide
<water> got sql guide
<Tril> ok stop telling me now.. :)
<water> sorry
<s_r> water can i write code for the arrow system?
07:50pm
<iStormy> silly netscape...i try to save a file, and it creates a 0-byte file with that name, THEN tells me the server has no such file.
<water> sr: sure.
<s_r> yeah istormy that's one of the many flaws of the bloated browsers
<water> sr: have you looked at the smalltalk code?
<s_r> where can i?
<water> abi arrow?
<abi> well, arrow is a homo-iconic information representation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> it's at the second address
<s_r> |newReference|
<s_r>         (anArrow isKindOf: Arrow)
<water> yeah
<water> that's some of it
<water> you need a smalltalk environment to use it.
<s_r> i need to learn forth
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us925.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> there are a few free ones
<water> forth?
<abi> i guess forth is at http://www.forth.org or a nice user interface
<water> there's a forth tutorial there.
<water> and gforth is a GNU portable forth implementation
<water> hi hcf
<s_r> 2 17  +  .  <cr> 19  ok
<s_r> hmmmm
<s_r> water what are the best languages for developing an OS?
<hcf> lo water
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (=\)
<Tril> what kind of OS
<water> sr: it's subjective
<s_r> there's just too much information on the TUNES review of languages
<water> sr: the language determines the kind of os that you get
<s_r> should i choose C? Forth?
<water> sr: it's SUBJECTIVE
<water> if you pick c, you get to use everyone else's c code, but you still will have the headaches of adapting their code.
<Tril> ideally, an OS should be written in TUNES
<water> if you pick forth, you get a simple environment that can be quickly expanded to do new things, but forth has limitations.
<s_r> what are forth's limitations?
<water> it's memory-management system isn't easily expandable, for one
<Tril> modularity is one i think, right?
<water> yes, that too
<water> forth can't make modules
<water> c has libraries, but they're big and complicated
08:00pm
<_QZ> hmm only 12 channels on opn
<Tril> _QZ those are only the ones with 5 or more people
<Tril> type /list <5 to see the rest
<water> there's a lot more than 12.
<_QZ> #windowmaker has a good topic right now :)
<_QZ> i didnt do /list
<_QZ> http://indalo.telebase.es/cgi-bin/openprojects.cgi
<Tril> well, it's still probably using the default /list
-:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-032.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes
<s_r> hey beh
<Tril> hi be
<Beholder> Hey guys
<water> hi beh
<Tril> B: I got Zope working so we're reading docs on their web site to see if it will be suitable for use in TUNES for the web site
<water> i still can't find the "spawn new user" section
<Beholder> T:  what's zope?
<abi> zope is at http://www.zope.org
<Tril> water it's in doc/INSTALL.txt of the binary distribution, which says to add  them in a Users folder (object id acl_users)
<water> oh, ok
<water> as long as you have that straight
<Tril> or you can make another Users folder
<Tril> wait, um... we might not be using that.
<Tril> oh, i see.  The way I have it set up, I need to add users in both an Apache user list and in zope.
-:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup387.nni.com] has left #tunes []
* water/#tunes decides to leave the management to Tril and whoever else is interested.
<Beholder> Tril:  How is Zope compared to PHP3?
08:10pm
* Beholder/#tunes notices the Zope page is very fast...
<Tril> PHP3 is a script language you embed in HTML,, but Zope is a system for "Web Objects".  Both include support for SQL, but in Zope we might not need to use SQL since zope is a database itself
<Beholder> I like that tree control they use in the "feature list"
<Tril> i'm going to log off and read this, later everyone
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<Beholder> Seems like an interesting program... 
08:20pm
<water> sure
<_QZ> Tril: how do u make chanserv not auto op a channel founder?
<_QZ> Tril: or have u not figured that out yet, seeing how yer op'd an all :)
<water> qz: tril's away i think
<_QZ> ah damn
<Beholder> QZ:  What kind of video card do you have?
<_QZ> Beholder: most all 
<_QZ> i prefer milleniums
<Beholder> QZ: I thought you were an ATI fan?
<_QZ> i have the 1, 2, and G200 and soon will have the G400 max. i also have an ati all in wonder pro cuz it has tv
<_QZ> no i dont like ati
<_QZ> matrox is the best
<Beholder> QZ: Why so?
<Beholder> QZ: (just curious)
<_QZ> matrox releases their specs
<_QZ> ati wont
<Beholder> QZ: As does ATI I assume?
<Beholder> QZ:  Really?  They have basic Linux support on their page?
<_QZ> goto alan cox's page and read why u should boycott ati
08:30pm
<Beholder> QZ: What's the URL? 
<_QZ> http://roadrunner.swansea.uk.linux.org/alan.shtml
<hcf> abi: alan cox is at http://roadrunner.swansea.uk.linux.org/alan.shtml
<_QZ> abi: no, alan coz is at http://www.linux.org.uk/diary/
<_QZ> crap
<_QZ> abi: no, alan cox is at http://www.linux.org.uk/diary/
<abi> okay, _QZ.
<_QZ> abi: forget alan coz
<abi> _QZ: I forgot alan coz
<_QZ> Beholder: it should be under video for linux
<Beholder> QZ: Checking it out
<_QZ> at the bottom
<Beholder> I see.  So they won't release the spec's for the TV tuner?
<Beholder> Says the policy has changed, and ATI has released the specs (or will)
<_QZ> it appears they might be thinking about releasing them or maybe they are gonna write some module
<Beholder> I like ATI cards... when I sold computers they were the only ones I'd package with a system.  Very good drivers, and good support from the company.  
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-249.tscnet.net])
<_QZ> uhh
<_QZ> u do know that milleniums have the fastest 2D output and the cleanest signal right?
<_QZ> and the millenium is the first driver written for any new OS :)
<Beholder> QZ:  And they're terribly unstable... I know many millenium users who switched to another card, simply because they hated all the problems.  
<_QZ> what problems
<_QZ> i have 3 and have never had any problems, i have never before heard of problems with them
<Beholder> QZ:  Random crashing, screen corruption, non-standard refresh rates (causing unreadable screens)
<_QZ> i think not
08:40pm
<Beholder> QZ:  Try Half-Life in software mode on a Millenium-II... 
<hcf> _QZ: oh no, now u dont exist
<_QZ> hcf: eh?
<hcf> nm
<_QZ> Beholder: i run halflife all the time on a mill2
<Beholder> QZ:  In software mode?
<_QZ> well since the machine has no 3d card, ya software mode
<Beholder> QZ:  Most millenium users have a hell of a time with it
<_QZ> well maybe the american version is better then the canadian version :)
<Beholder> QZ:  Matrox is a 100% Canadian company... as is ATI... heheh... 
<Beholder> QZ:  I had a matrox M3D... it was a P.O.S.
<Beholder> QZ:  That thing would take down my system if the 3D got too heavy in a game...
<Beholder> QZ:  Matrox was horribly slow to get updated (stable) driver updates for the M3D...  I lost all faith in them at that point
<Beholder> QZ:  But the reason I brought the whole subject up was:  Have you tried the new drivers for your All-In-Wonder Pro yet?  (win9x drivers with OpenGL support)?
08:50pm
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* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 1 hrs 2 min 26 secs
<Tril> _QZ I don't think you can turn off auto ops
<Tril> pester lilo to work on the services bots :)
09:30pm
<_QZ> ugh
<Tril> or, ask how to do it, and tell me if you find out
<_QZ> he doesnt seem to be awake right now
<_QZ> but i will tell u when i find out
09:50pm
<Tril> rock!  now u can visit http://zope.tunes.org/ and see what zope looks like by going to the QuickStart
<Tril> and that's all I'm going to do for today! :)
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (bye) [BX-MsgLog Off]
10:00pm
-:- SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0613
IRC log ended Sun Jun 13 00:00:00 1999