IRC log started Sun Jan 31 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0131
ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES
<^lilo> hi all
12:30am
-^lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  I'm about to try some rehubbing.  Please bear with us.
ωνω NetSplit: king.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [12:32am]
ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [king.openprojects.net]
ωνω Netjoined: king.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net
ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES
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ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES
-^lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Per my previous message, the last split and join were due to my doing some rehubbing.  If this remains stable that should be it.  Thanks again for your understanding!
ωνω KeLp [kelp@204.201.210.125] has joined #tunes
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ωνω NetSplit: mccaffrey.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [02:07am]
ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [mccaffrey.openprojects.net]
ωνω Netjoined: mccaffrey.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net
ωνω Fare [fare@balance.wiw.org] has joined #Tunes
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ωνω oskie [usel@dialup120-2-21.swipnet.se] has joined #TUNES
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<linuxuser> Hi, all.....
<linuxuser> How is working TUNES project???
06:20am
ωνω SignOff linuxuser: #TUNES (changing servers)
ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (Ping timeout for KeLp[xws015.xtrn03.wwu.edu])
ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> hi hcf
<hcf> hoy iStormy
<hcf> page done yet?
<iStormy> nope, i had to sleep
<iStormy> just got up
<hcf> mouseover infoboxes, yay!
<hcf> load up on lots of useless stuff
09:30am
ωνω FareWell [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes
<FareWell> hum
09:40am
ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear)
ωνω FareWell is now known as Fare
ωνω KeLp [kelp@xws041.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes
<Fare> hum
10:20am
ωνω binEng [bineng@dialup146-2-20.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes
<binEng> wow, ppl! hi!
<Fare> lo
<binEng> anything going on, or are things as usual?
<Fare> I am very late. Article due tomorrow, only half written
<binEng> anything interesting for me?
11:50am
<Fare> um, like?
<binEng> like... computers? :)
12:00pm
ωνω jdl [jiml@ultra1.inconnect.com] has joined #tunes
<jdl> Busy today.  :)
ωνω mungo [sandan@cs13p16.dial.cistron.nl] has joined #TUNES
<mungo> # Appears as ARMANDO.
<jdl> Anybody here read my philosophy paper yet?
<mungo> (#G010E010M1Tjdl) hello
<binEng> jdl: url?
<mungo> (#G410E910M1Tjdl) dont read it
<jdl> http://www.teleport.com/~sphere/documents/0006/4/index.html
<jdl> mungo: huh?
<mungo> (#G810E:10M1Tjdl) yes me
<binEng> jdl: u're Jim Little?
<jdl> yep
<mungo> (#G010E010M1Tjdl) strange?
<binEng> ic, nice to meet you :)
<jdl> Hi :)
<mungo> (#G724E826RM1Tjdl) i am new here
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Please welcome back hogan.openprojects.net in Bristol, UK!
<jdl> binEng: Sorry I haven't responded to OS email yet, been working on paper.
<jdl> mungo: This channel is dedicated to TUNES project, http://www2.tunes.org
<jdl> I use it for my own nefarious purposes.  ;)
<binEng> jdl, I haven't replied to the Prism mail either, there's no obvious things to say about it. Gotta look closer at it first.
<mungo> (#G810E;84RM1Tjdl) i am sorry dont understand you
ωνω hcf has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: TUNES project <URL:www.tunes.org>. http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/notes/ArrowsInHaskell.html
<jdl> binEng: That's okay, I'd actually be more interested in your comments on the philosophy paper.
<mungo> (#G010E010M1Tjdl) my englisch is not so good
<jdl> binEng: It lays out the foundations of what Prism is for and hopes to accomplish.
<binEng> ok, I'll write you some comments on it
<jdl> binEng: That'd be great.  Thanks  :)
<mungo> (#G410E910M1TKeLp) ?
<jdl> mungo: TUNES is an operating system project.  You can read more at http://www2.tunes.org
<mungo> (#G810E:10M1Tjdl) thank you
<mungo> (#G2<:E010M1Tjdl) i am from holland
12:30pm
ωνω mungo [sandan@cs13p16.dial.cistron.nl] has left #TUNES []
ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (Ping timeout for KeLp[xws041.xtrn03.wwu.edu])
ωνω SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Watch me fly! Wheeee!!)
ωνω SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω KeLp [kelp@xws043.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes
π iStormy/#Tunes has the word...but lacks the will.
<hcf> verbosely inclined?
12:50pm
ωνω krz [krz@stn3-2-174.seatac.net] has joined #tunes
<iStormy> i reference to jdl's paper...i didn't notice he had left
<iStormy> i/a
ωνω krz [krz@stn3-2-174.seatac.net] has left #tunes []
<hcf> iStormy: why wont u put up a simple, lynx-friendly page while u work on a fancier one?
<iStormy> cause i don't really have any content to put up...just feel like making a web page  (c:
01:00pm
<hcf> oh great, no content
<iStormy> it's a learning experience for me...rather than a knowledge-imparting experience for you
<iStormy> also gives my brain something to do while i have os concepts brewing on the back burner
<hcf> just do a frontpage
<hcf> w/ a choice of fancy/non-fancy
<hcf> DONT force the choice based on browser name/version
01:10pm
π KeLp/#tunes is away: (in bed) [BX-MsgLog On]
ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[bespin.ml.org]: EOF from client)
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<Tril> whoa, busy day
<Tril> re all
<hcf> hoy Tril
ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com])
<Tril> we got bespin.cx!
<hcf> .cx?
<Tril> Christmas Island
ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes
<hcf> Tril: irc/1999.0126 is wrongly permissioned
01:50pm
<Tril> ok, fixed it
<hcf> why rnt the newer mlists mentioned on the site?
ωνω TMF [s720@spinner.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes
<Tril> hcf: know how to use CVS?  :-)
<hcf> i thot the mlists wer ur thing
<Tril> i was waiting for people to decide if creating those new lists was an ok thing to do..
<hcf> gonna be a looonnnggg wait
<Tril> TMF: is <s720@ii.uib.no> supposed to work?
<TMF> yes, I suppose so.
<TMF> I just heard that there has been some problems on the system earlier
<hcf> Tril: who's supposed to decide? irc'ers, members, or tunes-list ppl ?
<Tril> ok, the mail server is refusing connections currently, just so you know. (there's a message in the queue on bespin, and it keeps re-trying every 15 minutes)
<Tril> hcf: did you see the ~bineng/members/? We need to do something like that for the mailing lists, too. and auto-generate them from a database. There's like 5 lines of HTML for each list, it's a pain to entre by hand.
<hcf> checkout: http://www.premier1.net/~nathana/commontone/
<Tril> did you know premier1.net is in my area?
<hcf> also, i thot we wer gonna grab that sort of member data from ppl's .plan/.project files
<Tril> they are one of the chaepest isp
02:00pm
<Tril> yeah, maybe in the plan.. but this sort of needs a standard format for some fields. And no one made a .plan. 
<Tril> not all those people have accounts , either.
<hcf> some how, ppl need to do stuff, possibly be made to act by force
ωνω SignOff TMF: #TUNES (Leaving)
<hcf> this stagnation is bullshit
<Tril> that's beholder's job
<hcf> well, he aint doing it
<Tril> so, email him
<hcf> so he needs to be MADE to do it
<Tril> or you do it
<hcf> i dont do email, i do irc
<hcf> and i havnt seen him on for a while
<Tril> I will MAKE you use email
<hcf> im sick of every time i suggest something, ur ~first response is that i do it
<Tril> People have no right to complain, if they aren't doing anything
<Tril> I think what would make you happy is the illusion that we were doing something, even if we were not.
<hcf> perhaps
<Tril> like frequent web page updates, lots of news announcements of nothing, and so on.  Stuff like putting the IRC logs online.
<hcf> everything else is vapor, why not have vapor activity?
02:10pm
<Tril> php3 is probably better than commontone, since commontone is a CGI script and is just starting.
<Tril> vapor activity is even worse than no activity.
<hcf> but vapor act. attracts more members
<hcf> who come w/ more prototypes
<Tril> so you want to change tunes into an osdev forum? that idea has corssed my mind before.
<Fare> gfhdfhjdj
<Fare> don't wait. Just do it.
<Tril> crossed
<Fare> who does chooses
<Tril> Fare: making tunes an osdev forum?
<hcf> we dont need more talk, we need more effective talk/actions
<Fare> Tril: there's already osdev@tunes.org for that
<Fare> Tril: or is it os-help and os-ideas?
<Fare> ok, os-ideas@tunes.org
<Tril> or, more exactyl, making an osdev forum.
<Tril> the silence is deafening
<Fare> maybe noone have any idea that wasn't expressed first in MOOSE or TUNES ?
<Tril> Fare: I think the "just do it, who does chooses" philosophy is what hcf is complaining about.
<iStormy> yeah, you dirty tunes bums used up all the ideas  (c;
<Fare> Tril: what does he proposes?
<hcf> Tril: how about merging w/ osdev worldwide
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917820969 81254 from #TUNES
<Fare> hcf: would that get any more work done?
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917820979 494382 from #TUNES
<hcf> Fare: not necessarily
<hcf> but tril was talkin about promoting osdev
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (changing servers)
ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES
*: Target left UnderNet. Failed to deliver: [
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<Fare> hcf: if you know how to get things done, tell us. If you're ready to manage things, do them; if not, find someone to do them. They'll be welcome.
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917821134 930188 from #TUNES
<Tril> Sorry, I was on a lagged server, I missed that. hold on reading log
02:20pm
<Tril> Fare: there are an os-help/os-ideas, with zero traffic.
<Tril> hcf: to merge w/ osdev worldwide we would need to ask josh if we can contribute
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917821303 148358 from #TUNES
<hcf> where has beholder been?
ωνω Tril_ [dem@ppp361.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes
<Tril_> I dunno, school/
<Tril_> ?
<iStormy> is there a page for the bigger osdev list you're talking about?
<Tril> abi, osdev?
<abi> osdev is dead
<Tril> uhh..
<Tril> http://milkyway.isa.net.au/os-dev/index2.html
02:30pm
<Tril> new site: http://os-dev.isa.net.au/
<Tril> that's probably why nobody uses our os-* lists, they can just use the webboard on josh's site.
<hcf> Tril: or perhaps its cuz noone knows about os-*
<Tril> for some reason I have to load the page twice every time, the first time is connection refused
<Tril> hcf: yeah, I agree that no one knows about it.
<Fare> cable is much more comfy than modem. I now enable images by default :)
<Fare> a US friend of mine will come in March
<Fare> we met on the web, then he went in Paris.
<Fare> and now he'll be back for a few days
<Fare> the world is small
<hcf> the web dwarfs it
02:40pm
<Tril_> i think we should call a irc meeting to discuss the relationship of tunes with osdev in general. we should pick a time when beholder and josh can both come
<hcf> what about the review proj?
<hcf> is it wholely tunes?
<Tril> yeah, that too.  review+osdev ?  better make sure ultima shows too..
<Fare> we need a "learn CS" review page: best ways to learn about CS, depending on tastes, etc
<Tril> what do you mean wholely tunes
<Tril> Fare: good idea
<Fare> best "paradigms", best ways to learn them, best books or e-articles, etc
<hcf> i mean,
<hcf> by the look of many os project sites
<hcf> the tunes review pages are like its own entity
<hcf> just happens to be hosted by tunes
<Tril> yes
<Fare> my, I hate all these web pages "optimized" for a particular browser at a particular resolution!
<Tril> your point?
<Tril> what are you getting at
<Fare> my point? don't do that for Tunes!
<hcf> the relationship isnt clear
<Fare> (I'm visiting the os-dev page)
<Tril_> no, fare, I was talking to hcf. sorry
<Tril_> I dont care what page is optimized for, as long as it works on any browser I use
<Fare> tiny characters at 1600x1200 is not what I call "works"
<iStormy> i hate web pages with tiny print...
<Fare> so as far as I'm concerned, the page doesn't quite work on netscape (or IE either, I guess) at hi-res
<hcf> opera has zoom
<Tril_> i use 4 browsers regularly lynx mozilla communicator and ie
<Fare> IE? Yuck :(
<Tril_> Fare: It's just a message board.
<Tril_> hcf: Yes
<Fare> oh, btw, is IE/Slowaris runnable under Linux/Sparc?
<Tril_> hcf: Reviews of languages should really be its own site distinct from tunes.
<Fare> if ultima does his job, it will be
<Tril> when ultima has his database ready, we'll make review.tunes.org, to clarify that distinction
<Tril> to make clear that review is simply being hosted by tunes
<hcf> the new review is supposed to be demo'd today
<Tril> huh?
<hcf> said so on the page
<hcf> http://www.tunes.org/Review/new/index.html
<Fare> sure. I had to reverse his clobbering the Tunes project *without* any replacement (which was due "RSN", and isn't here yet)
02:50pm
<Fare> that promise of something ready "sunday" was for last sunday.
π iStormy/#Tunes needs to get a truetype x11 server going, he doesn't have enough fonts with which to play.
<iStormy> and a place to get the standard windows fonts...my win3.1 floppies are 5 1/4 and my 5 1/4 drive doesnt' work anymore
π iStormy/#Tunes realizes he meant to say that in the other window.
<Tril> i have 2 or 3 5.25" drives I don't use
<Tril> not counting 360k ones
>>> Tril_ [dem@ppp361.whatcom.pacificrim.net] requested PING 917823247 442181 from #TUNES
ωνω SignOff Tril_: #TUNES (changing servers)
<hcf> i hav ~20 5.25 drives, at least half usable
*: Target left UnderNet. Failed to deliver: [
PING 917823247 442181
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<Fare> I've tried a few old 360K floppies recently: mostly corrupt.
03:00pm
<Fare> abi: Tril?
<abi> Tril is not the one to ask about red hat, not having used it yet
<Tril> abi, tril?
<abi> i think tril is used red hat now, and hates it passionately
<Fare> Tril: how so?
<Tril> here is a brief story of my attempt at installing red hat 5.2
<Fare> oh, please share with us!
<Tril> make boot disk
<Tril> choose partition
<Fare> (I had more probs w/ 5.2 than with 5.0, btw)
<Tril> select groups of packages
<Tril> select option "select individual packages"
<Fare> hum, bad idea
<Tril> individual package list is ignored
<Tril> de-selection of package group "X" is ignored
<Tril> redhat proceeds to intsall everything anyway
<Tril> so i cancelled in the middle and gave up.
<Tril> later that day, someone else (at the installfest) was trying to install rpm's for KDE in RH5.1
<Tril> I took the keyboard to try to do it, since they couldn't get it to work
<Fare> did you check the "install everything" mark? might explain things :)
<Tril> kdesupport depends on libjpeg-6b-5 or greater 
<Tril> and libungif-3
<Tril> but you cant uninstall libjpeg-6b-3 because it is depended on by 10 other packages
<Fare> you can *upgrade* it:
<Tril> and you can't upgrade because the new version conflicts with the old version
<Fare> rpm -Uvh libjpeg-6b-5.i386.rpm
<Fare> rpm -ivh --force libjpeg-6b-5.i386.rpm
<Tril> yes, I had to use --force
<Fare> rpm accepts to be forced
03:10pm
<Fare> rpm is *dumb*, but, contrarily to dpkg, doesn't *pretend* it isn't.
<Tril> i dont know what dpkg is
<Fare> it's the debian equivalent
<Tril> I tried installing debian after giving up on redhat
<Fare> btw, Mandrake is a (french) RH-based distro that comes with KDE ready
<Tril> spent 3 hours in dselect, unslecting packages. then I hit the wrong key (Enter, I think) and it went back to the menu. when I went back to try to continue deselecting/selecting, it had lost all my work. so I gave up on that too (i'll wait for apt)
<Fare> also, SuSE6 uses RPM and is KDE ready
<Tril> but i really liked the debian install, and debian in general. it just takes a day to decide what packages to install (the first time, at least)
<Fare> (KDE ready, I mean, comes with a nicely integrated KDE by default)
<Tril> NEVER use 3rd-party rpms with redhat
<Tril> only the ones that come with it
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> sometimes, you don't have a choice :(
π iStormy/#Tunes uses freebsd, which pretty much always works.
<Tril> debian is good because it encourages almost all .debs to become part of the distro
<Fare> iS: and pretty much has 1/10th of the functionality
<Tril> Yes, i also installed freebsd, finally got that all installed. it won't boot yet, but i am going to fix that..
<Fare> Tril: the downside is, "unstable" debian is REALLY unstable.
<iStormy> freebsd has 6/10ths of the apps to be precise  dc:
<Fare> well, those 6/10th that are common with Linux are those that pose 1% installation problems under Linux
<Fare> but admittedly, freebsd might be preferred for firewalls and/or net servers
03:20pm
ωνω Iliterate [jacob@cvl218091.columbus.rr.com] has joined #tunes
ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (Ping timeout for KeLp[xws043.xtrn03.wwu.edu])
<Fare> Iliterate: how do you do?
<Tril> i am here
<Fare> Have you looked at the MAUDE system from SRI?
<Tril> no
<Fare> http://maude.csl.sri.com
<Fare> another forsaken soul: http://www8.pair.com/mnajtiv/tao.html
ωνω Tril has changed the topic on channel #TUNES to: tunes <www.tunes.org> arrows in haskell <www.soi.city.ac.uk/~ross/notes/ArrowsInHaskell.html> OS dev FAQ <http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~entropy/os/> (Contributors needed!)
03:30pm
<Tril> did you e-mail these people
<Fare> which?
<abi> i think which is where SOLO, the oskit, and other stuff come, so as to help you
<Tril> Maude or Tao?
π Fare/#Tunes pats abi on the head
π Fare/#Tunes seldom emails, even friends :(
<Tril> I tke that as a no
<Fare> you tke it correctly
<Fare> except that I met in person the chief responsible for Maude some time ago
<Fare> and I do need to finish tht article for tomorrow to send it to Reflection'99 of which he's committee member...
ωνω KeLp [kelp@xws043.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #tunes
<KeLp> Tril: how goes the Debian experience?
π Fare/#Tunes still needs to install debian, someday
<KeLp> do it
<KeLp> just don't let dselect scare you off
<Tril> KeLp: can I use the base that I have to ftp more packages?
<KeLp> totaly
<KeLp> just fire up dselect
<Fare> dselect is a bitch
<Tril> I need to get ppp working first
<KeLp> ohh
<KeLp> run pppconfig
<Fare> I'll wait for a new "stable" debian to install (preferrably on PPC)
<KeLp> what kind of PPC do you have?
<Fare> My mom got a PowerBook G3 Series -- don't get one!
<KeLp> Tril: do you have pppconfig?  I'm not shure if that is right
03:40pm
<KeLp> since I don't have ppp installed
<Tril> KeLp: I've been experiencing weird problems with norton today, (like missing conversations) if you do, change servers
<Tril> I'll look in a moment. I've put my slackware drive back in for now
<Fare> (that beast really sucks. MockAss 8.1 is worst than ever, and linux has a few glitches in hardware support)
<KeLp> I want PIOS to release their TransAM
<Fare> PIOS???
<KeLp> www.metabox.de/pios/uk/
<KeLp> they are working on a CHRP machine that will run BeOS, Linux, MacOS and some other stuff
<KeLp> but the whole project is kind of up in the air
<Fare> anyway, I hate PPC. I prefer either ARM or Alpha.
<KeLp> it kind of depends on Be to support their boxen
<Fare> too bad digital was bought up.
<Fare> Down with Be, and its arrogant french prez! ;-)
<KeLp> who still makes good cheap open Alpha boxen?
<Fare> Tril: what's .cx?
<KeLp> xmas island
<Fare> KeLp: dunno. /. talked about 533MHz Alpha at $350 in 1000 pieces
<Fare> Tril: was the bespin.cx stuff a spam, or a generous offer?
<KeLp> yeah I saw that
<Fare> kelp: btw, do we know each other? I'm Fare.
<KeLp> never met
<Tril> Fare: No, it's set up now.  I'm going to make it official as soon as a few more nameservers are added.
<KeLp> I hang in #wcug all the time
<KeLp> go to the same school as Tril
<Tril> fare, meet kelp, an openbsd fanatic. he works at the CS department at WWU.  kelp, meet fare, the founder of TUNES, he goes to conferences to present papers in France where he lives.
<Fare> KeLp: how do you do?
<Fare> Is the CECIL project still active at Washington.edu ?
<Fare> or is wcug a completely different entity?
<Tril> WCUG is the WWU computer users group
<Tril> Washington.edu is the University of Washington, in Seattle.  WWU is in Bellingham.
<KeLp> I do well
<Fare> ok
<KeLp> wcug.wwu.edu
<Tril> washington.edu is "the UW", wwu.edu is "Western".
<Fare> how far from seattle is Bellingham?
<KeLp> ~~90 miles
<KeLp> or some such
03:50pm
<Fare> is it West to Seattle, to be "Western" ?
<KeLp> north
<KeLp> its in Western Washington State
<KeLp> WA is divided into east and west by the cascade mountains
<Tril> "Western"because it's the first word in the name
<Fare> ok
<Tril> unofficial
<Tril> kelp do you know php3?
<KeLp> nope
π KeLp/#tunes doesn't do web stuff or database stuff
<Tril> i should ask p00h
<KeLp> but I should know it
<KeLp> AlKader knows that shit too
<Tril> Fare: I sent a mail to review about maude (so ultima will add the link)
<Fare> is the review list active?
<Tril> 5 membes. I cc:ed to the main tunes list and reminded people to join review.
<KeLp> hmm, maybe I should just look for another used sparc
<Tril> members
<KeLp> I need another non PC
<Tril> need?
<KeLp> yep :)
<KeLp> and preferably one faster than 20Mhz
<Fare> I just added myself the h@x0r way :)
<Fare> KeLp: NetWinder!
<Tril> Fare: what way is that, e-mailing majordomo?
<Fare> I'd get a NetWinder, if it wasn't twice as expensive as a PC!
<Tril> oh, right, editing the file
<Fare> Tril: :)
<KeLp> the problem with netwinder is total lack of expandablity
<Tril> I'd get another PC, if it wasn't infinitely more expensive than not getting one!
<Fare> hehe
<KeLp> netwinders are too expensive for what you get
<KeLp> but they are cool
<KeLp> any one used a netwinder?
<Fare> ARM is cool. I want my next computer to be either ARM or Alpha (or something even k00ler, if anything comes in the meantime)
<KeLp> how does ARM compare performance wise?
π Fare/#Tunes has stopped dreaming about a 32-bit variant of the F21
<KeLp> the WWU CS dept has a lab of DEC Sharks
<KeLp> running NetBSD
<Fare> KeLp: ARM is infinitely better in CPUbenchmark/watt
<KeLp> really?  Infinitly huh?
<KeLp> thats pretty good :)
<Fare> what's a Shark? DEC-branded ARM with that 16-bit code mode?
04:00pm
<Fare> KeLp: maybe not infinitely, but mucho better, anyway
<KeLp> its much like a Netwinder
<KeLp> but made by DEC
<KeLp> they shiped with NetBSD
<KeLp> but they were discontinued
<Fare> KeLp: F21 oughta be even better, only they're too slow, fighting against quantum effects in old silicon processes
<KeLp> www.research.digital.com/SRC/iag
<KeLp> who makes F21?
<Fare> Review/OSes.html#MISC
<KeLp> going there
<Tril> KeLp: prefix that with http://tunes.org/ if you didn't figure it out :)
<KeLp> figured it out :)
<KeLp> Fare: have you used a NetWinder?
<Fare> I haven't had this chance
<KeLp> I wish they could take more than 64MB RAM
<KeLp> know of any other ARM based computers?
<Fare> oh, so that's a hard limit? Can I add a 128MB DIMM?
<Fare> KeLp: Psion Series 5
04:10pm
<Fare> KeLp: or Acorn RISC Machines (much too expensive for the bang)
<KeLp> from linux.corel.com it looks like you eiter get 32MB or 64MB, no other options
<KeLp> and they says nothing about upgradability
<Fare> I guess you'd have to mail someone who's got one
<KeLp> yep
<Tril> Fare: I'm having trouble finding an e-mail address for the writer of the Tao page
<Fare> anyway, it's a nice machine, but almost twice the cost of a equivalently powerful PC.
<KeLp> yeah, thats the problem isn't it
<Fare> Tril: hum. Looking in comp.os.misc...
<KeLp> I'm willing to pay more for a less powerfull non-PC, but probably not twice as much
<Tril> Fare: He is the creator of the Theory-Edge list, and if you go up one dir from that URL you get "Mad Genius Research Lab"
<Fare> vznuri@netcom.com (Vladimir Z. Nuri)
<Tril> KeLp: are you following the amiga?
<Tril> ok, thanks. I'll email him soon.
<KeLp> Tril: knida sorta
<KeLp> the transAM is a kinda sorta next generation Amiga
<Tril> i'm going to go to debian now and see if I can get ppp setup in less than 5 minutes
<KeLp> they have ex-amiga guys on staff
<KeLp> good luck :)
π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<Fare> Funny how Commodore flunked its computers by forgetting mass memory
<KeLp> I don't really know a thing about amiga
<KeLp> it was really before my time
<Fare> the latest mass memory being the network, I bet that next generation Amiga will have no way to connect to the internet.
<Fare> (except a 300bps modem)
<KeLp> so the Psion Series 5 is a palm top?
<Fare> yup
<KeLp> hmm, I don't really need one of those
<Fare> see the LDP page about Linux ports, then click around ARM-related stuff
<Fare> I'd love an Itsy or a PLEB
<KeLp> yeah, I totaly want an Itsy
<KeLp> ohh, the NetWinder can take 128MB RAM
04:20pm
<KeLp> I really want something that is not a PC and runs Linux and at least NetBSD
<KeLp> hopefully OpenBSD too
<KeLp> but with my price range I'm dreaming
<KeLp> Fare: why don't you like PPCs?
<Fare> various reasons.
<KeLp> I ask out of ignorance
<Fare> It's got lots of bloat, it's (mostly) big endian, it's IBM, its paging system inspires doubt, etc
<Fare> and it doesn't deliver its promises of outstanding performance.
<KeLp> but CHRP has the potential to be a pretty cool open platform
<KeLp> if some one steps up and starts making the boxen
<Fare> it failed to be open long ago.
<KeLp> the spec is still Open.  But currently Apple is realy the only one really making PPC machines, and they are not realy folowing the spec
<KeLp> at last that how I understand it
π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 12 min 12 secs
<Tril> ok, 10 mins.. it worked
<KeLp> not bad
<Fare> what worked?
<KeLp> ppp
<Fare> the IBM spec was "open", except IBM controlled the design and had it rely on expensive IBM parts not found anywhere else, or so.
<Fare> and they kept it changing every so often.
π Fare/#Tunes remembers the Apple ][ specs -- mucho simpler :)
<KeLp> if pios ever builds their transAM it will be a totaly open PPC machine
04:30pm
<Fare> maybe someday, a hardware dealer will understand what made the fortune of that first Oil nabab: better have 5% of a giant market, than 100% of zero.
<Fare> (the one who built Standard Oil, I think)
<KeLp> Sun is cool about Sparc clones aren't they?
<Fare> Sparc is a lame arch, anyway
<KeLp> how so?
<KeLp> I really like all the sparcs I have used
<Tril> what's the closest debian mirror?
<KeLp> ftp-mirror.internap.com
<KeLp> its 10Mbit too
<KeLp> and barely used 
<Fare> Sparc is too much C-oriented
<Tril> it went to /pub/debian/stable, is that slink?
<KeLp> thats hamm
<KeLp> C-roiented?  Like sparcs are desigened with C in mind?
<KeLp> designed rather
<Tril> well, it's ok for now. I just want to get sshd so I can leave my connection up and go to western to run dselect some more remotely.
<Tril> (not even a telnetd is on here yet :)
<KeLp> you have to get sshd from non-US.debian.org
<Tril> oh
<Tril> how big is the packages file?
<KeLp> you have to grab several packages
<KeLp> probably not much larger than 2MB or so
<KeLp> total
<KeLp> hmm, a Sparc2 with 2GB and 64MB RAM for $395
<KeLp> tempting
<KeLp> with keyboard and mouse
<KeLp> and frame buffer
04:40pm
<Fare> Sparc2? sucks.
<KeLp> why?
<Tril> what package is telnetd in?
<KeLp> checking....
<Fare> a 486 is faster.
<KeLp> netstd
<KeLp> I know that
<KeLp> a sparc2 is only 40Mhz
<KeLp> being slow doesn't make it suck
<KeLp> at last not in my opinion
π iStormy/#Tunes will sell you a slow 486 for $395.
<KeLp> Tril: www.debian.org/distrib/packages
<KeLp> I don't want a slow 486
<KeLp> I want another slow sparc
<Tril> oh, I thought netstd was already on here
<Tril> guess not
<KeLp> what kind of computers do you guys have?
<KeLp> since obviously everything that I like sucks
<Tril> you know what i have
<KeLp> this is ture
<KeLp> true rather
<Tril> how do I unselect all packages (except one)
π iStormy/#Tunes has an SMP p133 with 96M ram, 3.6G over 3 drives, 15"
<KeLp> you want to remove all packages?
<Fare> What I have sucks even more: 4 PCs, and 2 Macs. The worst computers on earth.
π KeLp/#tunes has 2 PCs, 2 Macs and a ss1
<Fare> Oh, and an HP28 calculator! :)
<KeLp> I really dont like PCs at all
<Tril> KeLp: no, I only HAVE one package I think, dont' I? It comes up with a lot of packages with * because they are required, but I don't have them yet. I only want to intsall telnetd right now.
<KeLp> I just have a lot of respect for sparcs because they seem to be built well
<Fare> Once you put Linux on them, PCs and Macs become liveable.
<KeLp> unfortunaly my Macs are MacIIfxs
<KeLp> won't run any UNIX except A/UX
<KeLp> Tril: no, you actualy have many packages instealled
<Tril> I only have 25 megs used on this drive
<Fare> KeLp: the fact that the Sun peripherals be relatively "simple" doesn't make the arch good. It just means that Sun mostly locked the design.
<Tril> anyway, hurry up, I have to leave, how do I install just ONE additional package
<Fare> Won't IIfx run NetBSD???
<KeLp> nope
<Fare> too bad!
<KeLp> yup
<KeLp> dpkg -i packagename
<Fare> Help port Linux/mac68k :)
04:50pm
<KeLp> I think its an issue with getting the specs
<KeLp> its the only MacII unsupported
<KeLp> its has some strange proprietary bus
<KeLp> only used on that model
<Fare> Down with Apple!
<Fare> Apple did nothing good since the Apple @[
<KeLp> yeah, I'm not a big apple fan
<Fare> s/\@/\]/
<KeLp> well, I can't say Macs are much worse than PCs
<KeLp> except PCs are open
<Fare> that's a big deal of a difference
<KeLp> this is very true
<Tril> dpkg doesnt have FTP built in. I'll do this later.
<Fare> "Linux isn't much worse than Solaris, except it is open"
π Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<KeLp> well, if all you have to do is sit down and use the box
<KeLp> thats true
<KeLp> if all I have to do is install software on it and use a Mac
<KeLp> its pretty cool
<KeLp> which is pretty much what I do
π KeLp/#tunes is a luser
<KeLp> Fare: if you were in the market to spend money on a new, or semi new computer what would you buy?  (must not be a PC :)
05:00pm
<Fare> KeLp: how much money?
<KeLp> less than $200
<KeLp> err
<KeLp> $2000
<Fare> I'd take the money, and make a nice trip :)
<KeLp> no time for that :(
<KeLp> have to go to school
<Fare> Can I afford a 533MHz Alpha with that money?
<KeLp> hmm, not shure
<KeLp> know any good manufactureres?
<KeLp> what do you think about FreeBSD?
<Fare> www.microway.co
<KeLp> thats a loaded question by the way
<Fare> s/$/m/
<Fare> Dunno enough of FreeBSD, except that the packaging system inspires doubt to me.
<Fare> The architecture looks more primitive than Linux: perhaps more robust on supported hardware, but much less features.
<KeLp> the packaging system sucks, but I'm not a big fan of packaging systems any way
<KeLp> yeah, they tend to lag behind Linux in favor of robustness
<KeLp> I really like it my self
<KeLp> and walnut creek cdrom has hired programers to write a new package manegment system
<KeLp> which is much more ambitious than rpm or dpkg
<Fare> looking forward to it, then
<iStormy> freebsd is more cohesive & responsible, and is (on my hardware) faster.  linux has more programmers/programs/drivers/neat-tricks.
<KeLp> right
<Fare> faster?
<KeLp> well, I have no benchmarks
<KeLp> but it is at least as fast as linux on my computer
<Fare> reminds me how Linux 0.99.14 was faster than 1.0 -- the feature set made it slow down
<KeLp> for day to day use
05:10pm
<KeLp> FreeBSD 3.0 is faster than 2.2.8
<KeLp> on my box at least
<KeLp> and Linux 2.[12] seems faster than 2.0
<Fare> The linux performance has intermittent jumps in the right direction, followed by a long speed rot.
<KeLp> to me FreeBSD seems to put more though into large changes
<Fare> the performance is also tuned for a CPU/RAM combo that is drifting upwards, too
<abi> okay, Fare.
<Fare> abi: you suck!
<KeLp> FreeBSD rocks under a load too
<iStormy> my benchmark is me...my screen updates noticably quicker than linux, and apps run more smoothly (linux gets jerky sometimes, a difference in scheduler tastes)
<Fare> The Linux swap system sucks
<Fare> and its scheduler sucks, too
<iStormy> the qnx scheduler smoothes out linux and makes it quicker for day-to-day stuff
<KeLp> I wonder coment on the actualy quality of the FreeBSD scheduler and VM system since I have not looked at the code, nor would I understand it
<KeLp> s/wonder/won't
<KeLp> iStormy: has that patch been integrated into the mainstream source yet?
<KeLp> when I used it back in 2.0 days it was very nice
<iStormy> KeLp: nope, and doesn't seem to be maintained anymore
<KeLp> OpenBSD seems to really suck shit under a load
<KeLp> that is unfortunate
<KeLp> the qnx patch was way cool
<KeLp> but OpenBSD's problems on my machine could be due to pore hardware support or something
<iStormy> in linux, a compile would lag the rest of my apps, with delays before they'd respond, in freebsd, everything gets a bit slower, but it's still smooth
<iStormy> but linux has more apps and better packagers
<KeLp> OpenBSD is worse, compiles that aren't nice -n 19 make my mouse skip around
<KeLp> in FreeBSD I can build a kernel and make buildworld and compile something else and I barely notice
<iStormy> netscape is about the only thing that can make my mouse skip
<KeLp> in FreeBSD?
<iStormy> yup, when it dumps core  (c;
<KeLp> suck
05:20pm
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ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net]
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<Fare> OpenBSD and NetBSD are based around a MicroKernel, hence, they suck.
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<iStormy> why do microkernels suck
<KeLp> who said that?
<iStormy>       (Fare) OpenBSD and NetBSD are based around a MicroKernel, hence, they suck.
<KeLp> since when are they microkernel?
π iStormy/#Tunes is surprised to hear than netbsd has a microkernel...he wasn't under that impression.
<iStormy> oh, so i'm right, it doesn't  (c;
π iStormy/#Tunes is lagging...downloading x11 sources.  )c:
05:30pm
<KeLp> and since when do microkernels suck?
<iStormy> that was what i asked  (c;
<iStormy> i was curious to hear the reasoning
<KeLp> me too
<iStormy> maybe he meant monolithic
<KeLp> and so that means FreeBSD and Linux also suck
<iStormy> perhaps he is just crazy...that could explain it  (c:
<KeLp> I think I need to order DSL soon
π iStormy/#Tunes is downloading 30mb of source over 33.6k...been going for hours.
<iStormy> 75% done
<KeLp> could very well be
π KeLp/#TUNES is doing a cvs update of the OpenBSD source tee
<KeLp> s/tee/tree
05:40pm
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<Fare> Aren't NetBSD and OpenBSD based on Mach?
<KeLp> no, they are based on 386BSD
<KeLp> where as FreeBSD is based more on 4.4BSD
<Fare> oh, so much for me, then.
<KeLp> thats why OpenBSD's poor performance confuses me
<KeLp> its VM system and Scheduler should be quite simaler to that of FreeBSD
<KeLp> NetBSD did however do a complete rewrite of their VM
<KeLp> and I think OpenBSD is still using the old one
<KeLp> which may suck ass
<Fare> KeLp: read my Glossaray entry on microkernels...
<Fare> didn't the O/N split happen *after* that rewrite?
<Fare> maybe I should shut my mouth until I learn better...
06:00pm
<KeLp> checking....
<KeLp> the new NetBSD VM code (UVM) will be released with netbsd 1.4 in all supported architectures
<KeLp> currently its in the alpha, i386, hp300, mvme68k and vax ports
<KeLp> thats as of march 1998
<KeLp> before NetBSD had a Mach based 4.4BSD VM system
<KeLp> this replaces it
<KeLp> some other BSDs are built on top of Mach
<KeLp> much like mklinux is linux on top of Mach
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<KeLp_> I hate that
06:10pm
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ωνω KeLp_ is now known as KeLp
<Fare> KeLp: btw, mklinux is 8-15% slower than Linux.
<KeLp> right
<KeLp> microkernels are slower
<Fare> and that'd be even worse if the linux "singleserver" wasn't monolithic!
<Fare> did you read the glossary entry on uK ?
<Fare> do it!
<KeLp> glossary entry where?
<Fare> papers/Glossary#microkernel
06:20pm
<KeLp> ahh
<KeLp> brb, reboot
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<jdl> Hi, folks
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<iStormy> no exokernel in glossary?
<KeLp> so you thing Hurd is lame?
06:30pm
<jdl> Tril, Fare, either of you read my new paper yet?
π jdl/#tunes is desperate for feedback  ;)
<iStormy> i skimmed it while doing 3 other things...
<iStormy> with the result that i don't even remember what it was about  (c;
<jdl> :)
<jdl> iStormy: It presents the philosophy that programs are entirely mental, but that they are expressed in physical models.
π KeLp/#TUNES is getting ready to rebuild OpenBSD on his SparcStation1
<jdl> iStormy: The conclusion being that programming can be eased by using a programming environment that allows programmers to model their programs in a form which most closely matches their conceptual view of the program.
<KeLp> hopefully this will take less than a week
<iStormy> yes, it was something like that
<jdl> iStormy: agree/disagree?
π jdl/#tunes has had zero responses to paper thus far.
<iStormy> sounds like a fine idea...i just dunno how to do it
<jdl> iStormy: oh... maybe that's the reason for the total lack of response thus far.
<jdl> My Prism compiler attempts to meet those goals.
06:40pm
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<GMOL> Anybody here?
<KeLp> yep
<GMOL> real name? I am Maneesh
<iStormy> hi
<abi> hey, iStormy
<GMOL> Can anyone understand the TML tool...don't have access to a linux box..but the source doesn't make much sense to me.
<GMOL> ok I see nobody seems to be listening.....
<KeLp> I am, I'm just clue less
<KeLp> and have no connection to TUNES besides knowing Tril
07:00pm
<GMOL> oh ok....
<GMOL> welll..I guess bye then...
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07:10pm
<lar1> Hi hi!
<KeLp> hi
<abi> hoy, KeLp
<KeLp> yo
<lar1> yo
<KeLp> I need RJ45 crimpers
<lar1> I don't have any
<KeLp> suck
<lar1> Even if I did... how would I get them to you?
<KeLp> I have like 3 20 foot lenghths to 3 computers
<KeLp> two computer are touching each other
<lar1> Hehe
<KeLp> the other is 6 feet away
<KeLp> too much cable
<KeLp> it makes a mess
<KeLp> you could dcc them to me
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<lar1> Stupid windows
<iStormy> bah, i'm having no luck finding the standard windows ttf fonts on the net anywhere...everyone already has them, who needs to download them
07:20pm
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π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 4 hrs 33 min 16 secs
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<tcn> Hey, anyone home?
<KeLp> I am
<Tril>  hello
<tcn> busy day, I see
<Tril> I'm in debian 2.0, selecting packages to d/l :)
<tcn> cool
<tcn> I guess you can always grab some packages from 2.1, while keeping the "core" from 2.0
09:50pm
<Tril> is 2.1 stable?
<tcn> I've been using it for a week or so.. There have been a few packages changed in that time.. :)
<tcn> I'm like, "why's it downloading THAT? I already have that! ahh.. a fix/upgrade :)"
π KeLp/#TUNES is running 2.2
<KeLp> on another partition at least
<tcn> haha
<tcn> What's your main one, though?
<Tril> obsd assuredly
<KeLp> obsd freebsd
<KeLp> one of those
<KeLp> depends on my mood
<KeLp> and what I want to do
<KeLp> I'm using OpenBSD now because its running as an nfs server for my sparc so it can do a make build
<KeLp> the sparc is OpenBSD
10:00pm
>>> tcn [tcn@cci-209150250127.clarityconnect.net] requested PING 917848101 from #tunes
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917849224 626073 from #TUNES
<tcn> How'd you get bespin.cx?
<Tril> the person who registered it just e-mailed me and said "you have an ml.org name which is going down, do you want a subdomain off mine?" and I asked if he would let my machine be bespin.cx and he just set it up.
10:10pm
<tcn> 5 years ago, who would have ever thought people would fight over domains...
<Tril> not people, companies, really..
<tcn> it's becoming a real pain in the ass. I think the next global network should use geographic addressing
<tcn> I wonder if that would overlap with TUNES.. it overlaps with distributed computing..
10:20pm
<tcn> God damn, fare is so negative :) Alpha sucks, PPC sucks, Sparc sucks.. jesus christ!
<tcn> heh, I remember using a quad 40mhz sparc w/ 60 users online.. 10 second CPU lag.. haha
<Tril> Sometimes a "recommended" package will continue triggering a dependency error so I have to use "Q"
10:30pm
<Tril> Yes! I got to the bottom of the list!!  
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<tcn> tril: You went through the whole thing?? ouch
<tcn> it should be awhile downloading it all :)
<Tril> maybe..but I'm going to take kelp's suggest, and go to sleep :)
<tcn> yeah, that always works
<KeLp> when did I suggest that?
<Tril> 32283k
<tcn> not bad
<Tril> maybe it was grant
<KeLp> hmm
<Tril> no X, no compiler :)
<KeLp> suck
<KeLp> I'm doing a make build on my ss1
<KeLp> its slower than your 486
<KeLp> but has 28MB RAM
<tcn> Damnit, school is getting to me.. I'd quit if I wasn't in my last semester. Shoulda gone to WWU :)
<KeLp> yeah, this place is slackers ville
<KeLp> go to fairhaven
<KeLp> :)
10:40pm
<tcn> Yep.. if it turns out I need more than an A.S., that's where I'm headed :)
<KeLp> where do you live now?
<Tril> hey, that estimate is uncompressed, isn't it.
<tcn> Binghamton, NY. Hey, does it rain everyday in Bellingham, too?
<KeLp> not quite every day
<KeLp> but it rains a lot
<tcn> just like home, then!
<tcn> only I bet it's alot warmer on the seacoast
<KeLp> yeah, it hasn't been very cold here
<KeLp> hasn't been below freezing for a long time
<KeLp> if at all 
<tcn> sweet
<KeLp> this winter that is
<tcn> It hasn't been above zero very much, here :(
<Tril> it'll snow in April again...
<tcn> as usual
<KeLp> hmm, I wonder whats cooler, an IPX or a ss2
<tcn> IPX? what's that?
<tcn> network?
<KeLp> Sun
<KeLp> no
<KeLp> a Sun IPX
<KeLp> its a 40Mhz Sparc
<KeLp> I'm thinking about buying another sparc
<KeLp> something cheap and slow
<KeLp> but hopefully faster than the ss1 I have now
<tcn> hmm, slow would be fine for my new OS. My 486-33 works great when it's not running bloatware
10:50pm
<KeLp> hmm, I'm only slightly lagged
<tcn> still downloading that X stuff?
<tcn> shit, I forgot what a truth table looks like!
<Tril> who me?
<abi> you are, like, used red hat now, and hates it passionately
<tcn> haha
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<KeLp> lag
<tcn> anyone remember what a karnaugh map is?
11:00pm
<Tril> never heard of it
<tcn> good
<tcn> I hafta relearn all that digital logic stuff, after 5 years of not touching it :)
<Tril> ok, I'm going to bed now
<Tril> see ya
π Tril/#TUNES is away: (sleep) [BX-MsgLog Off]
<tcn> Well, screw this stuff, I can hand it in late. I'm going to sleep :)
<tcn> And he thinks 11:00 is late, it's 2 here
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (sleep)
<KeLp> man the net is such a stupid show
<KeLp> they are talking about the y2k bug like it will shut down every computer on the planet
11:10pm
<KeLp> and like one person could fix it, if they are just smart enough
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11:20pm
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0201
IRC log ended Mon Feb  1 00:00:00 1999