IRC log started Mon Jan 18 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0118
<jdl> I need to go soon... any last questions before I do?
<Tril> good examples of domain abstraction?
<Tril> we already went over some, i know
<jdl> Any high-level language?
<jdl> Perl
<jdl> Prolog
<jdl> Pascal
<Tril> and what "domain" are they "abstracting"?
<jdl> They all start with the letter "P".
<jdl> ;)
<jdl> Ummm... Domain-specific languages are actually the best examples.
<jdl> Perl's regex support is a good example, but Perl itself is rather bloated.
<jdl> Sierra's adventure game language.
<jdl> Javascript.
<jdl> To tell you the truth, I'm feeling a little confused.  Too many metas are bad for the brain.  :)
<Tril> from your definition.. a DA is  modelling a system in a different domain while retaining the system's essential properties.  For one example, list the system, the other domain, and the properties.
<jdl> Okay.
<jdl> The system: "Hello world"
<jdl> The system's domain: Electricity.
<jdl> The model: '10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD"'
<jdl> The model's domain: String-processing (BASIC)
<jdl> The essential properties: A friendly greeting displayed on the terminal.
<jdl> (done)
<Tril> can you do that without using "model" anywhere? or is that the point???
<jdl> I don't understand.
<Tril> just a sec
12:10am
<Tril> ok tell me if I have got this straight
<Tril> "10 PRINT .." is the domain abstraction of the electricity that does the printing?
<jdl> "10 PRINT .." is the MODEL of the electricity that does the printing.  Is it a domain abstraction of it?  I don't know.
<jdl> I'm not really sure what domain abstraction is.
<jdl> I've got a "gut feeling" but I'm having a hell of a time defining it.
<Tril> ahh...now the truth comes out :)
<jdl> You caught me.  :)
<Tril> just needed a little harrassment :)
<Tril> ok. I was going to ask "then is '10 print ..' a DA of a lower-level asm program that does the same thing", but you porobably don't know that , either.
<jdl> That, I would say definitely yes.
<jdl> I might even say BASIC was a DA of assembly.  :b
<jdl> If you can come up with a good definition that satisfies my intuitive sense of what a DA is, I'm all ears.  :)
12:20am
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
<jdl> Tril: Still there?
<Tril> i just have a tentative def
<jdl> Let's hear it.  I feel a need to harass someone.  ;)
<Tril> A is a DA of B iff A and B are both models of the same system C, and the abstraction level of A is higher than the abstraction level of B.
<jdl> How about:
<jdl> "A is a DA of B iff A and B both model the essential properties of the same system C, and A is simpler than B.
<jdl> "
<Tril> "higher level of abstraction" is more specific than "simpler", and is a term with a precise meaning.
<jdl> "essential properties" because some metamodels introduce semantics (like execution order, relative timings, etc.,) that aren't really important.
<Tril> I agree with the essential properties instea dof "the same system"
<jdl> I didn't know "higher level of abstraction" had a precise meaning, that's why I replaced it with "simpler."  What's the meaning?
<Tril> but take out the word 'essential', perhaps?
<jdl> abi: webster for essential
<abi> essential may be sought at http://work.ucsd.edu:5141/cgi-bin/http_webster?essential
<jdl> Definition 4: Containing the essence or characteristic portion of a substance.
<Tril> actually higher-level of abstraction already includes that non-essential parts are left out.  In model "B" some non-essential parts may be inrtoduced in the system, which are low-level details and not important to the high-level definition found in A
<Tril> did you read the glossary on Abstraction level, and the conversation about it earlier today?
<jdl> Didn't read the glossary, read the conversation (or I thought I read all of it)
<Tril> the glosasry was what the conversation was about :)
12:30am
π Tril/#TUNES uses passive voice too often
<Tril> passive voice is what I use too often
<jdl> heh
<jdl> Any easy questions about Prism's mechanics before I go?
<_QZ> intel has a bunch of morons working for them
<Tril> Beholder didn't understand the glossary so I tried to explain it
<jdl> (I should have taken off two hours ago!)
<_QZ> the celeron w/o L2 cache has the same model number as the pentium II's
<Tril> no, we'll talk about it later. I'm going to try to figure out this stuff with DA and meta and (what was the other thing) compile to, I guess.  Oh, also "is a domain of" :)
<_QZ> that leaves no easy way to test for a celeron 0k
<jdl> Thanks for talking, I enjoyed it.
ωνω SignOff jdl: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Tril> qz can't you try to use the cache or something
<_QZ> well i know the k6 has some register that tells how much L1 cache it has
<_QZ> but i have no idea howto tell how much L2 cache a P2 has
<Tril> disassembler your bios
<Tril> contact the openbios project
<_QZ> oh damn its 1:40
12:40am
<_QZ> cya
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
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12:50am
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<pontman> Whats TUNES
<abi> i guess TUNES is in my head or tunes is a useful nevertheless expedient system.
<pontman> infobot??
<abi> i think infobot is at http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~infobot
<pontman> from a not bot Whats TUNES
02:20am
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π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 9 hrs 37 min 52 secs
!driz:*! Unfortunately I am forced to terminate the great 42 day server uptime on bear.* due to a possible security breach.  The server will be back shortly.
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[ TUNES     ] [ Fare      ] [ abi       ] 
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<Tril> Fare, you here?
10:30am
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<Fare> oops
<Fare> Tril: yes?
<Tril> hcf: you need to make the tunes URL a sane fact
<Tril> just checking
<hcf> k
<Tril> did you see the log for pontman
<Tril> today
<Fare> pontman?
<Fare> it looks like I'm the only one hacking the CVS :(
10:40am
<Tril> well, at least someone is hacking the cvs :)
10:50am
<Fare> C is an interpreted language! There are at least 3 C interpreters available.
<Fare> Also, it is rumored that people have been producing chips that directly implement the C virtual machine in hardware!
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<ultima_> Fine then, hcf
<ultima_> be that way =(
<Tril> lynx support SSL yet
<ultima_> Lynx does with a patch
<ultima_> you need SSLeay and the patch
<ultima_> and i dont kno where they are
11:00am
<hcf> Fare, Tril: how do feel about copyrighting the review link pages?
<hcf> s/do/do u/
<ultima_> hcf well the output will be uncopyrighted because its generated by perl...
<ultima_> so we arent restricted at all
π Fare/#Tunes hates copyrights, and will only use them to turn them against the copyright system, with the GPL or such
<hcf> Fare, Tril: how will we handle copycaters?
<ultima_> hmm
<ultima_> I really ought to be in linux
<Fare> hcf: how that "handle"?
<Fare> I'm for authentification requirements.
<Fare> I'm against copyrights.
<ultima_> Authentication requirements...I dont like that
<Tril> copycatting of tunes is a good thing
<ultima_> Tril how is that?
<Fare> That is, anyone can copy, modify, etc, as long as they do tell that they do.
<ultima_> Fare I like that, but i'm talking about the situation where someone steals the .html, sed s/ultima/lamer/g, and puts it up removing all tunes references to hide guilt
<Tril> ultima: if you want to get your idea out and widely spread, and that is the main goal (like mine is), then more people using the idea is partway to the goal
<ultima_> If they mirrored it, or even maintained it seperately giving due credit and links, i'd be happy
<Tril> i think it would be pretty obvious they copied it from tunes
<ultima_> BBIAF, booting into linux
ωνω SignOff ultima_: #TUNES (Leaving)
<Fare> gimme a valid ZIP code, if possible for Washington DC
<Tril> 22222
<Fare> (so as to fill an inquisitive web questionnaire)
<hcf> http://cdacb.ernet.in/~faisal/webpages/OSes.html
11:10am
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<Tril> ultima:if someone copies our page we should be flattered
<Fare> what's .in?
<ultima> Tril hmm
<ultima> I guess so
<Fare> Tril: indeed.
<Tril> india
<Fare> ultima: still, it would be elementary politeness to tell the readers about the original authors et al.
<ultima> Fare: Agreed
<Tril> oh, someone actually did this. I thought we were talking hypothetically :)
<Fare> also, we would gratefully appreciate that he feeds back to us any enhancement his does to the contents of the page...
<ultima> Tril: Yeah. Theres ~2 copies of the review project floating around
<Tril> how often do they mirror it (if they do regularly)
π ultima/#Tunes has no idea. Heard it from hcf =)
<hcf> i thot ther wer 2, i was wrong, just 1, the url above
<hcf> thers over 5 copies of http://home.t-online.de/home/Sven.Paas/os.htm floating around
<hcf> the copies r usually one time things, never mirrored
<Tril> I think it's funny how they left the link "TUNES: the very project hosting this page..." pointing at their home page.
<Tril> and of course Languages.html is not found
11:20am
<hcf> if anyone cares: http://www.tunes.org/~nef/tmp/oses.txt
<Fare> what's mia?
<hcf> mia is missing in action
<Fare> oh
<Fare> hcf: why not modify the links directly on the CVS???
11:30am
<hcf> this would be done how?
<Tril> hcf: learn how to use cvs
<Tril> on your bespin account type 'cvs co tunes'
<Tril> or 'cvs co review' I think you can just get the reveiw section
<Tril> modify a file, then type 'cvs ci -m"description of change" filename.phtml'
<Tril> if description is longer than you want to type on command line, leave off -m option and it will spawn the $EDITOR variable to edit a description of the change.
<Tril> then, frequently, run 'cvs update' in the checked out directory to update your copy to the changes other people have made.
π Tril/#TUNES is away: (brb) [BX-MsgLog Off]
π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 3 min 46 secs
11:40am
<Fare> my /. submissions were ignored :( :( :(
<hcf> what did they concern?
<Fare> 1) my article
<Fare> 2) ask slashdot about making business cards using free software
<Fare> and 0) the conference where my article is published
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Open Projects Net is in need of a Few Good Hubs.  If you can make an account available to us on a multi-homed, solid Internet connection anywhere in Europe, please come see us on #openprojects!  Thanks much.
11:50am
<Tril> the conference should have been posted to the Types forum (most all the messages are conference announcements, and there are several per week)
<Tril> your article should go in the tunes papers section
>>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 916689580 58095 from #TUNES
12:00pm
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<Tril_> what's PHB?
12:10pm
<hcf> Tril_: whers it used?
<Tril_> on slashdot all the time
<hcf> "PHB is an acronym any IS/IT person reading /. will recognize"
<ultima> wtf is PJB
<ultima> PHB
<Tril_> well, I dont know what it is so if someone could please find out ..
<ultima> I know what PBJ means
<Tril> peanut butter and jelly
<ultima> yep yep
<hcf> PHB is Pointy-Haired Boss or a miracle of malevolent supervisory cluelessness. or Dilbert's managerial nemesis
12:20pm
<hcf> purl knew
<Tril_> thanks.
<Tril_> although it's dorky that everyone goes around using dilbet references.
12:30pm
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<Fare> sdfsdf
<Fare> abi: "PHB
<Fare> abi: wtf
<abi> i think wtf is this crap
<Fare> abi: PHB
<abi> PHB is Pointy-Haired Boss or a miracle of malevolent supervisory cluelessness. or Dilbert's managerial nemesis
<Fare> abi is stupid
<Fare> abi: abi
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut
<Fare> abi: abi is stupid
<abi> fare is stupid
<abi> ...but abi is the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut...
<Fare> abi: abi
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut
<Fare> abi: abi is gaklosmontic
<abi> ...but abi is the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut...
<hcf> abi: abi is also gaklosmontic
<abi> okay, hcf.
<Fare> abi: abi
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic
<Fare> wow! The first gaklosmontic little girl, ever!
<Fare> abi: gaklosmontic
03:20pm
<Fare> scary: http://www.springer.de/comp/lncs/copyrigh.html 
<Fare> I'm supposed to submit to a conference to be published as LNCS!
<Fare> abi: persistence
<Fare> abi: can you serve as a messaging system?
<abi> fare: i haven't a clue
<Fare> abi: what is persistence?
<abi> fare: i haven't a clue
<Fare> abi: how many clues do you have?
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, fare
03:30pm
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<Fare> abi: Mercury?
<abi> Mercury is purely declarative logic programming language at http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/research/mercury/
<Fare> abi: abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic
<Fare> abi: forget that abi is gaklosmontic
<abi> Fare, I didn't have anything matching that abi is gaklosmontic
<Fare> abi: forget that abi is also gaklosmontic
<abi> Fare, I didn't have anything matching that abi is also gaklosmontic
<Fare> abi: forget abi is also gaklosmontic
<abi> Fare, I didn't have anything matching abi is also gaklosmontic
<Fare> abi: kiss my ass
<abi> *smooch*
<Fare> abi: abi is also flurivostuginuous
<abi> okay, Fare.
<Fare> abi: abi?
<abi> well, i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous
<Fare> I guessed so!
<Fare> abi: god?
<abi> fare: wish i knew
<Fare> abi: life?
<abi> i heard life was good but it sucks
<abi> Fare: isnt there anything more useful you could be doing instead of playing with me?
<Fare> like, writing my long-due article with a deadline on feb 1?
<abi> perhaps
05:20pm
<Fare> abi: tell hcf to use cvs, when you meet him
<hcf> why?
<Fare> to update the links in the Review pages (etc)
<hcf> my way is find w/ me
<hcf> anyone wanna take my shit and do cvs, can go ahead
05:30pm
<Fare> ok
05:40pm
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<Fare> QZ: why isn't brix source available?
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<_QZ> Fare: why should it be?
<Fare> because it's announced on your page?
<_QZ> no it isnt
<Fare> well, it is, tho with 0K size.
<tcn> fare: It isn't there, because it's vaporware
<_QZ> ya thats cuz there is no source so its only 0k
<_QZ> when i write something then it will get bigger
05:50pm
<Fare> wasa there a 0.0.8 before announced 0.0.9?
<tcn> I was gonna ask you a question Fare.. if I can remember..
<_QZ> i have restarted the version numbers back to 0.0.1
<Fare> tcn: the answer is: yes, definitely
<Fare> unless it is: absolutely not!
<_QZ> haha
<hcf> tcn: how goes the glossary?
<Fare> tcn: if you have a q, speak up, or I go to sleep
<tcn> fare: I remember.. not a question, but an offer to maintain the i386 project
<tcn> Since I've been working on low-level 386 stuff so much lately
<Fare> tcn: you should contact core@suntech.fr, so he opens you CVS access on clementine
<Fare> unless you want to split a completely different code base (which you may)
<Fare> tcn: offer granted, anyway
ωνω ultima [ultima@user-37kb329.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes
<Fare> tcn: mind the oskit, too
06:00pm
<ultima> Fare does the OSKit still suck?
ωνω ultima is now known as ultima_
<tcn> I haven't found it any more useful than Linux.
<Fare> the oskit?
<abi> the oskit is probably out
<Fare> abi: forget the oskit
<abi> Fare: I forgot oskit
<Fare> abi: the oskit is at http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/
<Fare> abi: oskit?
<abi> oskit is at http://www.cs.utah.edu/projects/flux/
π Fare/#Tunes pats abi on the head
<abi> *purr*
<tcn> haha
<Fare> ult: did it, ever? except for not being released?
<ultima_> Fare: What?
<Fare> (suck)
<ultima_> oh yeah
<ultima_> yes, it did suck
<ultima_> quite much
<ultima_> it was basically freebsd--
<tcn> Whoever said "it's basically parts of BSD and Linux" was right :)
<ultima_> tcn I said that
<ultima_> And thats all it is
<ultima_> mostly BSD
<_QZ> no i said that
<ultima_> _QZ: We both said that, I guess
<_QZ> it uses all the linux and fbsd drivers
<_QZ> with wrappers
<tcn> So yes, it still sucks. It's plaigiarism, really.
<ultima_> tcn, yes, it is
<tcn> Nothing original about it
<ultima_> tcn: They took the Linux & BSD drivers, stuck them into libraries with a uniform API, and called it an OSKit
<ultima_> tcn: Honestly, I'd rather use Mach (Mach is actually pretty damn cool, its just slow)
<tcn> Anyway, I'm working on my own drivers, and they're highly modular and written in assembly
<Fare> the wrapper technique looks interesting.
<Fare> the modular approach in general looks good. And they report easy use to transform Unix apps into standalone OS...
π Fare/#Tunes wouldn't touch a microkernel with a ten foot pole
<ultima_> Fare yeah well i wouldnt touch you with a 20ft pole
06:10pm
<tcn> What makes a microkernel different from "no kernel"? Do all the parts run as separate processes?
<Fare> ult: thank god!
<Fare> microkernel is the paramount in abstraction inversion
<Fare> abi: abstraction inversion
<Fare> abi: what is abstraction inversion?
<abi> wish i knew, fare
<ultima_> Fare uh
<ultima_> No?
<ultima_> tcn: Basically, yes
<ultima_> tcn: The kernel is just a message passer
<tcn> Ok, it's slow and it gets in the way :)
<hcf> so when is http://www.nokernel.org supposed to be up?
<ultima_> tcn not when properly implemented
<tcn> Hey hcf, want to take over the glossary scripts?
<tcn> You're probably a better perl hacker than I am :)
<hcf> tcn: i doubt that
<hcf> ultima_: cant ur review scripts work for the glossary?
<ultima_> hcf...you know what, they could
<Fare> abi: abstraction inversion is described in ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/CritLisp.html
<Fare> abi: what is abstraction inversion?
<abi> somebody said abstraction inversion was described in ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/CritLisp.html
<Fare> I need no kernel to pass messages!
<tcn> neither do I
<_QZ> haha windows is all screwed up
<_QZ> in 2001 daylight savings starts on april 1st but win9x wont change the clock until april 8th
<ultima_> _QZ why not?
<_QZ> and it will do that every year that april 1st is a sunday, 2007, etc..
<tcn> Hey, we should have a "perl script junk box" where we keep all these half-assed scripts :)
<_QZ> its a bug in windows that M$ refuses to fix
<_QZ> Microsoft has admitted that the bug 
<_QZ> exists, but claims problems resulting from it will be rare.
<ultima_> _QZ: Betcha they are handling 0 as an error code
<ultima_> _QZ: Instead of the date sunday..
<_QZ> and outlook lists may 24th as memorial day this year
<_QZ> but its really on may 31st :)
06:20pm
<tcn> fuckin' idiots
<Fare> not idiots. Just bastards.
<Fare> abi: microssoft
<_QZ> oh my god, this blonde joke is the best
<Fare> abi: microsoft
<ultima_> microsoft is lame
<ultima_> abi: microsoft?
<abi> microsoft is lame
<tcn> let's hear it _QZ!
<_QZ> whats yer email address?
<tcn> tcn@tunes.org
<_QZ> sent
<tcn> hahah
<Fare> ok, share with me
<_QZ> sent
<_QZ> oops, wrong email
<ultima_> ditto
<ultima_> ultima@snicker.emoti.com pls
06:30pm
<_QZ> ultima,tcn: do u guys have web pages for yer OSes?
<ultima_> I dont
<ultima_> mines barely a bootsector and a theory...nothing really to publish yet
<_QZ> oh
<tcn> Yeah, not much on it, and outta date: www.clarityconnect.com/webpages5/tcn/comp/retro.html
<_QZ> tcn: add a link to the os-ideas/os-help mailing lists on yer page
<tcn> ok
<_QZ> we need to get lots of links on OS pages so more ppl will join, and maybe perticipate
<_QZ> s/perticipate/participate/
<hcf> _QZ: announce os-* on usenet
06:40pm
<tcn> Yeah, I should get in on that list
<Fare> mines a lot of rubbish, and stupid people blattering on a mailing-list...
ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Back to the Tunes OS project -- /whowas Fare)
06:50pm
<tcn> Did anyone ever post on os-help or os-ideas?
<tcn> Hey, anyone wants to fuck with my glossary scripts, they're in ~tcn/glossary on bespin
<_QZ> not anymore :)
<ultima_> What does indexOf do in java?
<tcn> I'm setting them aside for now.. maybe if the glossary is concise and doesn't contain irrelevant terms, it won't be unmanageable
<tcn> java sucks my left nut
<tcn> I suck at java, too
<_QZ> ok i have 4hrs to get brix releaseable so fare will shutup :)
<tcn> I'm gonna go write a keyboard driver. See ya..
<_QZ> u want mine?
<tcn> Sure, why not
<tcn> thanks
07:00pm
<tcn> allright, see ya
ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:10pm
ωνω SignOff ultima_: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω rend [\n@dialin1000.computron.net] has joined #tunes
<rend> what was ultima's quit messagE?
<hcf> ultima_ (ultima@user-37kb329.dialup.mindspring.com) Quit (Leaving)
<rend> ok, thats good.
07:20pm
ωνω rend [\n@dialin1000.computron.net] has left #tunes []
ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
ωνω ultima [ultima@PPPa39-ResaleNashville1-2R1023.saturn.bbn.com] has joined #tunes
<ultima> i hate that nickflood prot
ωνω SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Leaving)
07:30pm
ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
ωνω Tril_ [dem@ppp163.whatcom.pacificrim.net] has joined #tunes
ωνω SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
ωνω SignOff Tril_: #TUNES (Tril_ has no reason)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0119
IRC log ended Tue Jan 19 00:00:00 1999